Author Topic: Toe Hang  (Read 66170 times)

bargolf

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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #150 on: June 17, 2009, 08:59:03 AM »
When we consider rotation we measure it as opening and closing relative to a measured target. Let assume a straight putt. The center of the hole is zero. How much the putter opens to that line and closes in the follow through is the amount of rotation. Our average is about 14 degrees total.

The "hooding" is a limiting of the backswing rotation by literally not allowing the face to open. Usually combined with a slight inside move off the ball. (Not staight back)

One thing in common with all the players mentioned using the hooded method.

Heel shafted putters.

 is there anything wrong with hooding a putter as opposed to letting it rotate?

No! In some ways it is preferable, but to be most effective the stroke has to start a little inside. The description gets a little wordy but, straight back and you have to open the putter at impact to keep from going left. This is a precurser to the yips and we have a number of cases documented where the yips? were cured by swinging the putter inside rather than sb.
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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #151 on: August 19, 2009, 11:45:18 AM »
I agree with Drew...but if SBST is your thing...a good thought for a straight stroke (all short putts) is "left shoulder up, ball in the cup". This encourages a straight through, upward movement past impact to keep the putter square. Because we stand to the side of the ball and on an angle, a straight path is really a curved path, be it ever so slight. When things go wrong its usually "right shoulder around, ball above ground."  :)

Ray
Love this! Nice Ray, it will help me, and makes perfect sense IMO.
~D

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Toe Hang Question
« Reply #152 on: August 19, 2009, 11:53:32 AM »
Hello,

I have a quick question relating to "toe hang".

What effect does toe hang have on the putting stroke?

All else equal, is there a noticeable difference between a putter with a 4:00 and a 5:00 toe hang (for example)?

Does a certain toe hang lend itself more to a certain putting stroke?

Any input / feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much in advance for your time and consideration.

reflog74

Re: Toe Hang Question
« Reply #153 on: August 19, 2009, 12:17:49 PM »
Here you go. 

http://www.puttertalk.com/community/index.php/topic,7655.msg172414.html#new

I'm merging this thread with that one.

John

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Toe Hang Question
« Reply #154 on: October 15, 2009, 07:51:45 PM »
Per the subject line of this post, I am looking for some more information about toe hang.

Specifically, I am curious how toe hang affects the putting stroke.  Is the degree / amount of toe hang purely a matter of personal preference, or does it somehow play into the stroke itself.  How does one know what degree / amount of toe hang is ideal (or, again, is it personal preference)?

Please excuse my ignorance as I am fairly new to the custom putter world.  I am about to purchase my second custom putter and this toe hang thing is really hanging me up.

Any feedback / input is appreciated!

kylek

Re: Toe Hang Question
« Reply #155 on: October 15, 2009, 08:39:24 PM »
I think most of it is personal preference.  I have always been told that a putter that is face balanced or close to it suits a straight back straight through stroke, while putters with more toe hang fit the arc stroke better.


cleekman

Re: Toe Hang Question
« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2009, 08:52:52 AM »
Korpan. ,

Kylek summarized the general perception accurately.
Toe hang is a function of where the shaft (sometimes the shaft bend) and hosel are presented to the putter head itself. Generally speaking, the closer the shaft is presented towards the heel, the greater the toe hang. And the intuitive first reaction is that with all the weight out towards the toe, the easier it will be to promote the swinging gate (open back, close through) stroke. Then you run accross the mad scientist Geoff Mangum who tells you
that physics in the real world doesn't work like that. In brief he says that if the toe is heavier it takes more of an effort to manipulate the toe open than if the toe and heel were balanced. He debunks the premise of "toe flow".

Now that you're back to square one, with enough practical research you should come to the point where you realize that any putting stroke, whether the back stoke is two inches or sixteen inches, that is taken back on plane (most original equipmment starts out with a lie angle) (in putting that's the plane) will naturally open the toe on the backstroke, and close it on the followthrough. The rest is between your ears.

M

bargolf

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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #157 on: October 28, 2009, 10:36:37 AM »
Update to Toe Hang

As is obvious by my posts I don't think toe hang is an accurate way to determine how a player will react to a certain putter.

One example of this is some work we did comparing true face balanced putters - center shaft no offset - and forced balanced putters - heel shaft double bend or long hosel.

Both of these style putters will show a 3:00 toe hang but we saw a definite difference in rotation (opening and closing the putter during the stroke) between the 2.

The true center shafted, face balanced putter seems to be easier to hold square to a straight path. So for the player with eyes directly over the ball or one who plays the ball very close to their feet, as someone who uses a long putter, or one who uses a longer putter bent to an upright lie, the face balanced wants to swing square to the path. So if the path is accurate the putt should be accurate. With "forced balanced putters" we see a different reaction. These putters have a tendency to come to the ball heel first or slightly open to the path. It was quite common to see players with this type of putter swing the putter on a path left to compensate.
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bargolf

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Re: Toe Hang Question
« Reply #158 on: October 28, 2009, 11:23:59 AM »
Cleekman,

I read your post with interest and I can't help but want to stir the pot a little. ;D

First, while I agree with Geoff's comment about how a heel shafted putter works, I have to  strongly disagree with the idea of the lack of importance. Shaft placement and offset has a huge influence on the opening and closing of the putter. I am pretty clear on Geoff's method and for his method it might be a little less important. However, it is very important for those players who need to have their eyes off the ball or use a more upright posture to be successful.

The opening and closing of a putter is dependant on many things. Posture, arm length, shoulder width, grip, shaft plane direction and many other things have an influence. Some need more rotation, some are looking for less. While I don't think the traditional thoughts on toe hang are the best way to judge how a player will swing a putter, the need to find the correct rotation to work with a players path clubface relationship is so important it should not be left to trial and error.

Welcome to the forum. Look forward to sharing thoughts.

Bruce
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Toe Hang???
« Reply #159 on: April 11, 2010, 12:03:17 PM »
How does toe hang effect stroke?  I've seen a lot of stubby and long neck Bettinardi putters lately and from what I understand the stubby will have more toe hang than a standard plumbers and a long neck less. 

So, what does toe hang effect?
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reflog74

Re: Toe Hang???
« Reply #160 on: April 11, 2010, 12:10:38 PM »
This thread is a sticky in Strategy and Technique.

http://www.puttertalk.com/community/index.php?topic=7655.0

John

bargolf

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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #161 on: November 11, 2010, 04:36:59 PM »
ANOTHER TOE HANG UP DATE

The official postion of the United States Golf Academy is that toe hang measurement is a way to anticipate how much rotational feedback a player will get from a particular putter.

This theory allows us to explain player preferences and also the discrepancy we have found between measured strokes and what has been accepted as common knowledge.
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cnosil

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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #162 on: November 11, 2010, 10:29:22 PM »
ANOTHER TOE HANG UP DATE

The official postion of the United States Golf Academy is that toe hang measurement is a way to anticipate how much rotational feedback a player will get from a particular putter.


Can you please define rotational feedback and how it relates to the stroke.

Thanks.

bargolf

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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #163 on: November 12, 2010, 09:54:29 AM »
Square to the path is a theory tough to apply, but even if you try to maintain a square to the path position during the stroke the putter has to open and close. Satn Ultey is closed to the path when he thought he was square.

The rotational requirements of each stroke are different, because each player is different. Regardless all of us have the same goal. To have the putter rotate to square at impact.

Warning. If you come to the conclusion that you can eliminate the rotation or minimize it by manipulation that is when the problems begin.
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bargolf

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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #164 on: February 10, 2013, 11:29:11 AM »
July 14th 2008 was the date of the first post I made on toe hang. It was based on some testing I with Mentor putters. I think it is fair to say our findings created more questions than answers.


What we did learn was that every stroke had a rotational requirement and that every putter had a rotational value and if you could find a match you would see an improvement in your putting. What I also learned was that this rotational value was not necessarily a function of toe hang only. We saw then and I continue to see players with putters of same toe hang with completely different measured results depending on how the toe hang is achieved.


Over the course of the next 4.5 years we saw those manufacturers using the PuttLab technology, in particular Adams and Ping were seeing the same thing. In fact, we knew when we sold PuttLab to Ping that they planned to use the technology to create a system of their own. The final result of which is the Ping App. But even with the research budgets of these manufacturers there were still unanswered questions, at least for me.


I was still seeing examples every day, of putters fit for toe hang to satisfy the rotational requirement of the stroke, not working. The most simple example would be three putters with 90 degree toe hang. One is heel shafted and one is center shafted and one in between. On Puttlab, with the same player using all three time after time, we see changes in the stroke, and in particular the rotational patterns of the stroke.


There is an obvious influence in face balance and stroke patterns but until just before Christmas of this past year a pattern eluded me. At this point I want to give Byron Morgan most of the credit, for without his ability to vary toe hang within similar designs I would have never got this figured out.


For the time being I can share this information with documentation.
1. Using path shape to determine toe hang won't help you. Posture determines path shape, but different postures can produce similar paths. For example I can produce a linear path with a crouched posture and with a very tall posture , but the rotational requirements of these similar paths are very different. Nt because of the path shape but because of the difference in the stroke mechanics caused by the differing posture. I.E. It is hard to move the same way from two different positions.


Not all paths are the same.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:31:45 AM by bargolf »
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inzcup

Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #165 on: November 04, 2013, 09:35:27 AM »
From the United States Golf Academy:

To settle a discussion with one of our students. We had him hit putts on PuttLab blindfolded with two putters. Cameron newport2 and odessey center shaft two ball.

Same grip

Same length

same swing weight.



We measured 5 strokes with each.

Anyone care to guess on rotation and path change?

Bruce

No idea!

Depends on how well you know how to be a manipulator!




jr edit: remove new post from quoted text.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 01:40:00 PM by jr »
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inzcup

Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #166 on: November 04, 2013, 11:08:26 AM »
July 14th 2008 was the date of the first post I made on toe hang. It was based on some testing I with Mentor putters. I think it is fair to say our findings created more questions than answers.


What we did learn was that every stroke had a rotational requirement and that every putter had a rotational value and if you could find a match you would see an improvement in your putting. What I also learned was that this rotational value was not necessarily a function of toe hang only. We saw then and I continue to see players with putters of same toe hang with completely different measured results depending on how the toe hang is achieved.


Over the course of the next 4.5 years we saw those manufacturers using the PuttLab technology, in particular Adams and Ping were seeing the same thing. In fact, we knew when we sold PuttLab to Ping that they planned to use the technology to create a system of their own. The final result of which is the Ping App. But even with the research budgets of these manufacturers there were still unanswered questions, at least for me.


I was still seeing examples every day, of putters fit for toe hang to satisfy the rotational requirement of the stroke, not working. The most simple example would be three putters with 90 degree toe hang. One is heel shafted and one is center shafted and one in between. On Puttlab, with the same player using all three time after time, we see changes in the stroke, and in particular the rotational patterns of the stroke.


There is an obvious influence in face balance and stroke patterns but until just before Christmas of this past year a pattern eluded me. At this point I want to give Byron Morgan most of the credit, for without his ability to vary toe hang within similar designs I would have never got this figured out.


For the time being I can share this information with documentation.
1. Using path shape to determine toe hang won't help you. Posture determines path shape, but different postures can produce similar paths. For example I can produce a linear path with a crouched posture and with a very tall posture , but the rotational requirements of these similar paths are very different. Nt because of the path shape but because of the difference in the stroke mechanics caused by the differing posture. I.E. It is hard to move the same way from two different positions.


Not all paths are the same.

Back to reality and pure physics. 

A putter weights what, a pound or 2 max.  And is it paired, connected  to say 200 pounds of control freak golfer muscles, with a loud mouth, and you allow it, to control your whatevers. That includes sound waves sent to its off course direction after the bungled attempt.  Its a rather arrogant piece of mass.  It doesn't listen or speak well, so hold your breath,  it will not respond.  Period

Good grief, get a grip!  Adjust the grip pressure to avoid the manmade manipulative putter, or get a 200 pound putter, to equal the force. That way you are one with the club.  its questionable to try this, because the thing you are attacking, only weights a tenth of a pound.  An over kill really in the scheme  of things and probably not doable anyway.  Im thinking grip pressure  at just the right muscular control will prevail. It is the best mode and odds, to drain putts.  Dont let it control you, period.

You might get lucky sometimes with conventional wisdom.  Listen to the one that drains every putt, if there is such.  There are myths, and science,  I go with science every time.  its always right, and extremely, unbiased.  Confidence helps too, and do look at it from different perspectives, inside out, backwards, upside down if you can, dominate eye always.   Your eyes can and will play tricks on you, not to mention the terrain you are navigating.  Im from another planet, so I see things from a different light, and many different angle perspectives.





jr edit: remove new post from quoted text.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 01:40:40 PM by jr »
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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #167 on: November 04, 2013, 11:20:48 AM »
Im from another planet...

Is that a scientific fact?
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inzcup

Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #168 on: November 04, 2013, 03:44:20 PM »
If you really must know, ask a scientist, or just any old Joe Blow.  Ive observed some very strange creatures at this landing area.  Pretty strange physics ,opinions, going on!  Maybe they know too.
 
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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #169 on: November 04, 2013, 03:54:39 PM »
Inzcup, whatever your drinking is way too strong for my liver, chillaxe FFS, you seem to be counting down towards some kind of implosion.

Regards
T
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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #170 on: November 04, 2013, 04:48:07 PM »
The use of colo(u)r in T's Earth picture is better. The hues have a depth and emotion that create an aesthetic unparalleled on this planet.
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jr

Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #171 on: November 04, 2013, 04:53:17 PM »
boom

cnosil

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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #172 on: November 04, 2013, 07:39:32 PM »
Back to reality and pure physics. 

Inzcup,

I have to admit I am completely lost by your posts.  You acknowledge that you are an artist that developed a putter that allows for maximum adjustments and as you have stated optimized forward roll.  Is the putter USGA approved yet?

As you said back to reality....what are your credentials to provide putting instructions and how many peoples stokes have you  analyzed.  Why is a ball that doesn't skid worse than a ball that does?  How can you consistently get forward roll without having to use a glancing blow?  If you hit the ball below its equator with an upward stroke,  it has to be launched into the air and will skid/bounce.  If you you hit above the equator with a glancing blow you might be able to get minimal skid,  but how to you consistently hit the same glancing blow and get consistent distance?  Downward strikes push the ball into the ground and will cause it to bounce/skid.     


kingfish26

Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #173 on: February 23, 2016, 06:01:55 PM »
Putter is the one club in the bag I see no reason to get fit for by a professional. I have always seen putting as so much of a feel and like of the looks thing. It's about finding something you like the looks of and when you stand over it you feel you can put a good stroke on it and put it in the hole.

Cols_Ears

Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #174 on: February 24, 2016, 11:59:37 AM »
Putter is the one club in the bag I see no reason to get fit for by a professional. I have always seen putting as so much of a feel and like of the looks thing. It's about finding something you like the looks of and when you stand over it you feel you can put a good stroke on it and put it in the hole.

Well I can't agree there. After working with Bruce I have a putter than works much better with my stroke and as a result my putting is far better than it was before we started working together.
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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #175 on: June 23, 2016, 12:42:29 PM »
Putter is the one club in the bag I see no reason to get fit for by a professional. I have always seen putting as so much of a feel and like of the looks thing. It's about finding something you like the looks of and when you stand over it you feel you can put a good stroke on it and put it in the hole.


My Dad is that way. I understand your thinking. But you may be surprised how a Professional can change something you never perceived and then you see improvement.
My Dad loves face balanced mallets. But he always said some days he just cannot control the face on 4-6 foot putts. Obviously the more he played the better he was.
One day I back weighted his mallet with a 50 gram slug. He was uncertain to begin with. After 9 holes he loved it. Said just need to relearn speed from being heavier but face control is much better on short putts.
That was 5 years ago and he still uses the same setup.
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bargolf

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Re: Toe Hang
« Reply #176 on: June 23, 2016, 02:47:04 PM »
So if I try a bunch of different putters until I find the one that looks good and feels the way I prefer, is that not a form of fitting?

All I know for sure is that I have 10 years of PuttLab measurements that show players swing different putter designs differently.

If that is true then there should be a way to find the most efficient design to match player to putter.
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