Author Topic: Restoring my DBAP  (Read 13383 times)

duhen1

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Restoring my DBAP
« on: January 20, 2011, 06:51:35 PM »
I've been thinking of getting my Wilson Designed by Palmer putter restored, and my research led me to this site.
The club is dinged up pretty bad (looks like it was in a vice at some point) and the shaft and grip are not original. I found it in a pawn shop years ago. I keep it in my bag and use it. (I have pictures but not sure how to post here.)

After getting form-letter responses from some restoration sites, I got a personal reply from Restoration Golf (Austin, TX) that answered a lot of my questions. They want to re-mill the face, fill the gouges, refinish the surfaces and apply a satin chrome finish. They recommended a True Temper Flared Bell Tip shaft and either a Grip Master Ethiopian Cabretta grip (expensive) or a standard pistol grip. Estimated cost is $210 with expensive grip and $175 otherwise.

I'd appreciate any advice.

Also, please tell me I won't anger the golf gods by refinishing this club.

Stage1350

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2011, 10:13:55 PM »
If it's already beat up, find a place that you trust and send it off. 

Concerns:
I have yet to see anybody duplicate the original finish quite right.  If they do satin chrome, it's usually brushed and rough.  Polished, and it's glare city.
Without the original shaft, look to Leaderboardgolf.com.  They carry the True Temper YHSF shaft that is the closest to the original.  First step is shorter, but it has the thinner .580" butt and a softer feel.
Get a hold of Harry at Best Grips.  His "D" underlisting is a close approximation of the original grip.  He can also do different colors if you dare to be different.

Don't feel bad about refinishing.  I am having a Wilson Arnold Palmer done in a PVD finish.  It was already restored, so the collectors are not going to touch it.  This way, I can play it and have a nice piece of history too.

Adams Damascus 8802
Bettinardi 110Cu BB2
Byron DB Captain Morgan Cu 1/4
Cameron 1996/500 Copper Napa
Giannini 1992 handmade 8802
Lajosi Damascus LP-808
Mills 8802 handmade
Scratch McCoy 8802 handmade
Tad Moore Hoffman 8802 Cu
Wilson DB Arnold Palmer
Xenon 8802 copper handmade #388
Yamada Razor Cu

duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 09:54:01 AM »
Thanks for the information. I'm definitely going to do this.
I like when someone recognizes the club in my bag -- it's a good conversation piece, even if it's not "collector quality."

Any suggestions if I wanted to go non-leather for the grip?

drewspin

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 04:35:16 PM »
If it were me, I would do a minimal amount of grinding on the resto and replate with copper to preserve as much as possible the feel of the original... I would not go with an e-nickel plating.

putterclub

Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 11:57:07 AM »
Why don't you like e-nickel? Is it too hard?

drewspin

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 12:02:32 PM »
Why don't you like e-nickel? Is it too hard?

Two reasons: 1) it will not look like the original and (2) the sound/feel will change slightly.

duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2011, 12:30:03 AM »
Wanted to try to post some "before" pictures. I hope this works.

The putter's been at Restoration Golf about a week and a half of a six-week stay. I requested the polished satin finish, which I'm hoping will look somewhat like the original finish (though I'm not expecting miracles).

Can anyone explain replating with copper or e-nickel? Wouldn't copper change the coloring and the entire look of the putter? 

drewspin

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2011, 01:38:24 AM »
of course copper changes the entire look.  The point being that it retains more of the feel.  E-nickel will look like it is refinished in e-nickel, and depending on your perception it may also change the entire look and feel.

Stage1350

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 08:23:24 AM »
I'm going to agree with Drew.  Since nobody can seem to duplicate the correct finish, and all restorations are obvious, why not have fun?  That's why he is recommending copper and I went with PVD.  Originality is a premium with these putters, so if you have a beater that you're going to play, dare to be different.
Adams Damascus 8802
Bettinardi 110Cu BB2
Byron DB Captain Morgan Cu 1/4
Cameron 1996/500 Copper Napa
Giannini 1992 handmade 8802
Lajosi Damascus LP-808
Mills 8802 handmade
Scratch McCoy 8802 handmade
Tad Moore Hoffman 8802 Cu
Wilson DB Arnold Palmer
Xenon 8802 copper handmade #388
Yamada Razor Cu

mike t

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2011, 08:05:21 PM »
good luck. Leather grip gives a nicer original look !!!

duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2011, 04:33:28 PM »
I guess I like the original look -- and since this is a one-time shot for me, that's what I'm going for.
(Now, if I had two of these, I might be inclined to have some fun with the second one.)

Anyone have pics or links to Wilson putters that have been restored in a "nontraditional" way?
Before I started this process, that hadn't even crossed my mind.

As for leather, I figure I could always go back and replace the grip. Right now, the cost is becoming a factor.


duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2011, 10:28:53 AM »
What was I thinking?
I just upgraded to a leather grip, and I feel a lot better about it.


duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 05:56:35 PM »
Here are some "after" pictures. Comments welcome.

Stage1350

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2011, 07:28:50 PM »
Did he just plate over the old putter?  I would have expected the restorer to weld and fill in the big dings then grind it smooth. 

Is the flared tip shaft stepped or stepless?

Did you go with the "D" underlisting from Harry, or a standard Gripmaster pistol?
Adams Damascus 8802
Bettinardi 110Cu BB2
Byron DB Captain Morgan Cu 1/4
Cameron 1996/500 Copper Napa
Giannini 1992 handmade 8802
Lajosi Damascus LP-808
Mills 8802 handmade
Scratch McCoy 8802 handmade
Tad Moore Hoffman 8802 Cu
Wilson DB Arnold Palmer
Xenon 8802 copper handmade #388
Yamada Razor Cu

duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2011, 10:21:54 PM »
The grip: Grip Master Retief Goosen-Montana Cow Putter Grip - BLACK
The shaft: True Temper Flared Bell Tip Putter Shaft

I don't have it in my hands yet, but I have concerns.

1. I was told that removing the bigger dings would require too much metal to be removed, greatly altering the weight. Building up then grinding smooth makes sense to me, but I (maybe mistakenly) took the restorer's word that this was the way to go. (I was told the dings would be reduced but still noticable.)
2. The paint in the lettering looks uneven -- thicker lines in some places than others.
3. I didn't expect the color to be perfect, but in the pictures it looks somewhat like gray paint.

Some of these things may be better in person. I should get it by UPS tomorrow.

Also, the entire thing took about four months -- much of it because of difficulty getting the shaft from the supplier -- which seemed excessive to me.

I'm just an average golfer who stumbled across this putter and decided to give it some new life. I probably made some missteps along the way, but maybe I went about this the wrong way. This board seems to be home to some experts. Any advice?


sandbagger

Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2011, 11:40:46 PM »
Not 100% sure what to say about this one? My guess is, this is not anywhere near what you were hoping for?

You are definitely limited on what can be done (head weight concerns) my thoughts are....better work could've/can be done.

duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 12:10:15 PM »
I realize what I'm presenting in this thread is a bit of a soap opera -- with cringe-worthy events, usually because of my own miss-steps. Some parts may actually be entertaining -- I don't know. Here's another episode.

I got this email today:

Quote
I am sincerely sorry that you are unhappy with the results.  Unfortunately, due to excessive vendor problems, Restoration Golf has closed.  We were unable to provide a consistent quality product because our plating vendors were unreliable and produced inconsistent quality.  I wish that we were in a position to fix the problem for you, but unfortunately we are no longer in business. 


Now I'm closing the door on that "phase," regrouping and looking to the future.
What I have now is a quality grip and shaft (though not "historically accurate"), and I'm pretty happy with those. And I have a club head that needs some care from someone who knows what he's doing. I'm open to anything at this point -- replating (even in another finish), any technique to remove the dings, repainting the lettering.

Any (and I mean any) suggestions would be appreciated -- especially the name of a reliable restorer.

Thanks,
duhen1

drewspin

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2011, 12:24:22 PM »
I would get in touch with someone who knows what they are doing: 

What it needs is to have the plating stripped, weld and then smooth the dings, then re-plate.  I stand by my original suggestion to re-plate with copper... you will have something distinctive and classic that will retain great feel.

I would see if Byron Morgan, Kevin Colbert or LaMont Mann would take it on as a project all three know what they are doing.

502 to Right

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2011, 12:52:26 AM »
I would recommend having the plating stripped and the dings welded and smoothed.  Then refinished.

Here is the answer (in my opinion):

http://mannkrafted.com/about.html

MoaningM

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2011, 08:25:23 AM »
You wont go too far wrong with any of those suggestions above.

duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2011, 02:07:26 PM »
Thanks. Those suggestions look very promising. I'll definitely be contacting those folks soon.

A few questions about alternative finishes like copper or PVD (chrome?):

1. Would the new finish also cover the putter face? How would that affect ball striking?
2. Is it customary to repaint the lettering at the bottom? (For example: Would a red "Wilson" on a copper finish look odd?)
3. Does anyone have links to photos using these types of finishes? (I see earlier in this thread that "Stage1350" was putting a PVD finish on a Palmer putter. Any pictures?)

Thanks again for all the help.

Stage1350

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2011, 02:31:30 PM »
Thanks. Those suggestions look very promising. I'll definitely be contacting those folks soon.

A few questions about alternative finishes like copper or PVD (chrome?):

1. Would the new finish also cover the putter face? How would that affect ball striking?
2. Is it customary to repaint the lettering at the bottom? (For example: Would a red "Wilson" on a copper finish look odd?)
3. Does anyone have links to photos using these types of finishes? (I see earlier in this thread that "Stage1350" was putting a PVD finish on a Palmer putter. Any pictures?)

Thanks again for all the help.


My Arnold Palmer shoud be on it's way back to me next week.  I'll have some photos by then.

I think the biggest thing is finding someone that can weld in the big dings and grind them smooth, especially the flange and hosel.  At that point, I'd go with copper like Sam suggested if I were in your shoes.  The copper will keep the feel soft, and the finish will hide the welding.  It will darken to a nice patina that will be easy to use on the course. 

I think I spec'd the Wilson in red and Arnold Palmer in white on my PVD refinish. 
Adams Damascus 8802
Bettinardi 110Cu BB2
Byron DB Captain Morgan Cu 1/4
Cameron 1996/500 Copper Napa
Giannini 1992 handmade 8802
Lajosi Damascus LP-808
Mills 8802 handmade
Scratch McCoy 8802 handmade
Tad Moore Hoffman 8802 Cu
Wilson DB Arnold Palmer
Xenon 8802 copper handmade #388
Yamada Razor Cu

Haymaker

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2011, 01:27:49 PM »
LaMont @ Mannkrafted is your guy! He will make it right!

Golfluvzme

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2011, 03:35:52 AM »
Had to pop in here and share what I have in my hands in this classic putter.
Ken sent me the putter and it arrived when I was neck deep in machine shop work, polymer finishes, and overall swamped.  It sat in the box for a couple of days, but the box was  in decent shape, so no damage was expected.
I gathered all that had been sent and started logging them in, about an hour ago.
When I opened the box with the DBAP in it, I nearly cried.  I had seen the same pictures as you all had and knew that the back of the flange was going to need some work, there were dings on the hosel and the face had been worked on. 
First thing I see when I pull the putter out is a very skinny top line, at the toe and nice wide top line, at the hosel end.  Yes, they milled the face, but in doing so and trying to stay clear of the hosel when they got to the heel end of the face, they milled over 1/8" more on the toe end than on the heel end.  Had this happened at my shop, I would own this putter and would have either found another DBAP to replace it or handmade him one and begged forgiveness.  On top of this, the edges are exactly as they were when the putter was taken off of the mill after cutting.  The edges are nearly sharp enough to cut a finger.  There is no excuse for this to have happened.  From what I have read, they are no longer operating and that is also a blessing for the golf world.
I am not certain what the finish is, but it appears to be simply bead blasted and paint filled.  I'll find out more on Monday when I do a little further investigation.
This putter is at a major crossroads and I'll have to call the owner and see how far he wants me to go on getting it back to gamer shape.  It can be done, but just repairing the damage done by the previous shop will be more work than the whole package would have been, when this project was started.
I will keep you guys posted and should have some pictures for all to see.  Will move this to my section for future postings and keep it moving.
I have always tried to know my limits on restorations and if a project looked over my head, I usually had a guy to send the customer to, someone who could handle it.  I sure wish that the previous shop had done the same with this one.
Keep you posted,
LaMont in AZ

Stage1350

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2011, 12:03:29 PM »
LaMont,

What would be the issues (if any) of welding a large amount of mild carbon to the face to build it back up and then milling back to appropriate thickness and size?  I know it would change the feel.  But once milled, polished, and plated, would you be able to see it cosmetically?

If I can recommend to the OP, I'd let LaMont go wild with the TIG and see how much metal can be added to being the weight and dimensions of the putter back up to snuff.  Then go with a misted nickel of satin chrome finish to try and keep the look of the original finish.  If it doesn't show the imperfections, I'd also still consider copper plating it. 

This putter will never be a 100 point restoration, but can make a great daily driver with some modifications.  [/guy who spent way too much time on cars before getting into putters.]
Adams Damascus 8802
Bettinardi 110Cu BB2
Byron DB Captain Morgan Cu 1/4
Cameron 1996/500 Copper Napa
Giannini 1992 handmade 8802
Lajosi Damascus LP-808
Mills 8802 handmade
Scratch McCoy 8802 handmade
Tad Moore Hoffman 8802 Cu
Wilson DB Arnold Palmer
Xenon 8802 copper handmade #388
Yamada Razor Cu

Golfluvzme

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2011, 12:14:29 PM »
Stage, I was actually considering a process, similar to what you are describing, just a little different.  I was thinking of milling down the face to get the top line parallel, front and back, then having a piece of 1/8" 1018 steel shaped just under the height of the face and having it welded all the way around the perimeter of the piece of patch.  I could then go back and clean up all of the weld, mill the face flat again and keep the top line the same thickness, all the way from heel to toe.
We are thinking along the same lines, just avoiding some of the heat that would be created with using TIG to lay down the filler metal and hopefully also avoiding any tiny air pockets that might form along the way.
I have done this method on a different blade, a couple of years ago and never really milled it back to a proper width, so she is considerably fatter than normal.  But, the method was solid and I think we may have just put a plan together.
Thanks,
LaMont in AZ
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:20:28 PM by Golfluvzme »

a.stebel

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2011, 07:47:29 PM »
How ever did you clamp the head, to mill it?  I want to mill off the chrome of an old blade putter I have...  If you have a pic of it in the clamp I would really appreciate it.

Golfluvzme

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2011, 09:48:50 PM »
I have not done any milling on this one, at all, just yet.  Heel-shafted blades are a challenge, especially if it is your first one.  For removing chrome, I would suggest having it chemically stripped, BOS is a good choice, as they specialize in golf clubs and will know what to look for as far as how NOT to mess it up.  If you have a good chrome plater in your town, they most likely have a chemical bath and can strip it, as well.  But, be careful as it is just as easy to mess it up, as it is to do it right.  I learned THAT the hard way.  I took a small batch of odds and ends to a local plater to be stripped.   When I went to pick them up, about 80% of the heads were ruined.  Lesson learned.
If I put this one in the mill to do the additional milling, it will be in a Kurt-style milling vise, soft jaws.  It is still a challenge, but I have one of the best young guys milling here in town, right on the other side of the shop.  If I get jammed up for holding this piece, he'll have an idea.  Should not be an issue, though.
Sorry for not having that special clamp.
LaMont in AZ

duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 05:29:21 PM »
Thanks for all the help. I'm learning to accept the excellent advise I've received on this board. For example:

1. I'm going with the oft-suggested copper finish, which I now think will be very cool. LaMont will experiment with an off-white lettering that he thinks might work well.
2. I'm trusting LaMont and taking his lead on what this putter needs. We're still looking at shaft and grip options. (By the way, I've talked to LaMont twice on the phone, and he's a great guy -- and very passionate about putters.)

One quick request: Can a moderator remove or X-out the original restorer's company name on this thread (he's now out of business). I think it appears in the orig. post and comment #16. Thanks.

Golfluvzme

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2011, 02:07:04 AM »
This one has taken a lot longer than originally expected, but the process was a lot more work that any of us saw coming.
She is done, ready for fill, shaft, grip and ship home to a very patient customer.
I hope that it exceeds his expectations and that he loves what he sees.
This one had the entire face milled out, a 1/8" plate welded back in that empty space and then had to be totally reshaped in order to make the new face and weld disappear.
Fire away with comments and I will be posting pictures of the process, either here or over in the MannKrafted section.
Thanks,
LaMont in AZ

ws6

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2011, 09:46:07 AM »
LaMont, that is outstanding!

Rob

drewspin

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2011, 10:26:29 AM »
Fantastic job, LaMont!!

Stage1350

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2011, 11:27:00 AM »
What did the restored headweight end up at?
Adams Damascus 8802
Bettinardi 110Cu BB2
Byron DB Captain Morgan Cu 1/4
Cameron 1996/500 Copper Napa
Giannini 1992 handmade 8802
Lajosi Damascus LP-808
Mills 8802 handmade
Scratch McCoy 8802 handmade
Tad Moore Hoffman 8802 Cu
Wilson DB Arnold Palmer
Xenon 8802 copper handmade #388
Yamada Razor Cu

Golfluvzme

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2011, 08:55:37 PM »
Restored headweight was just shy of 300 grams. 
Anyone know how close it was to what they tended to weight, when new? 
There were a few imperfections that I stopped short of eliminating 100%, when I got to the current headweight.  Without knowing original numbers, I figured that the 300 was a good fighting weight, when I compared it to some of the Hoffman forgings that I have been doing for Tad. 
Thanks,
LaMont in AZ

Stage1350

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2011, 09:43:25 PM »
Everything I've read is they wanted between 10.5-11 oz for headweight.  That would put it around 300-312g original.
Adams Damascus 8802
Bettinardi 110Cu BB2
Byron DB Captain Morgan Cu 1/4
Cameron 1996/500 Copper Napa
Giannini 1992 handmade 8802
Lajosi Damascus LP-808
Mills 8802 handmade
Scratch McCoy 8802 handmade
Tad Moore Hoffman 8802 Cu
Wilson DB Arnold Palmer
Xenon 8802 copper handmade #388
Yamada Razor Cu

duhen1

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2011, 12:03:30 PM »
Because the folks in this thread have been so helpful and supportive, I wanted to give you a look at the final product. (Sorry about my photography skills.)

LaMont was absolutely the best man for the job, so thanks to everyone who recommended him. The copper finish was another flash of brilliance. Only two weeks since receiving it, I see the color changing to something that looks vintage and very cool.

There's some back story of how I came to acquire the putter here, if you're interested:
http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php?topic=31882.0

Mostly, I just wanted to say thanks,
duhen1

502 to Right

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2011, 12:16:17 AM »
I just stumbled back over this thread.  What an amazing recovery.  LaMont is the man!!

Golfluvzme

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2012, 10:56:05 PM »
A quick sequel to this story. 
The copper plate, when mixed with the humid Louisiana air, decided to do the "Statue of Liberty" routine and go green.   Ken contacted me and I made arrangements to have it returned and fix it with a trip to the gentleman who used to do all of my plating.  His work was superior to the gentleman I have been using for the past 2-1/2 years, sometimes, but the time it took to get work done would vary from a week to four weeks..............not an easy thing to keep telling a customer, believe me.
Well, this one was one of the four-week drop offs and I was about ready to go it, pick it up and find a totally new guy, when the shop called and said it was ready.
I will get some new pictures of this beauty and have no doubt that the plating on the putter, now, is much heavier and absolutely gorgeous.
The customer has been incredibly patient and I know that this little guy is his baby, so that only adds to the difficulty in waiting for its return.
Paint fill tonight, assembly in the morning and shipping out on Tuesday.
Thanks again for the kind words and to Ken for giving me a second shot at a plating that will keep its true color.
LaMont in AZ 

mike t

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Re: Restoring my DBAP
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2013, 10:39:57 AM »
Can someone answer a simple question on a DBAP ?? Are the ones with the tapered maroon grips illegal for use in play in 2013 ?? Please advise. Thanks !!