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Sponsored Boards => Byron Morgan Putters => Topic started by: nvgolfdude on September 21, 2010, 02:30:38 PM

Title: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on September 21, 2010, 02:30:38 PM
This is a teaser and kick off post for this thread to share with you some exciting news for Byron Golf Design.  Over the past few months we have been working with Bruce Rearick (bargolf) of the US Golf Academy to supply him with a set of training/fitting putters for a fitting program that he has developed.  Bruce will be chiming in here with the details of what he is doing and how Byron fits into his program.
 
In short, it is very exciting!  It opens up a new avenue for us to get Byron putters into the hands of folks who go through the fitting program that Bruce has developed...  The program uses these training/fitting putters to fit the client/student to the best putter for them (teaser pics below  ;) ). 
 
** These putters, made from 303 American stainless, are exclusive to Bruce, and Byron will not be making them for anyone except Bruce and the PGA professionals who adopt his fitting program (not available for direct or retail purchase). **
 
 
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: reflog74 on September 21, 2010, 02:40:04 PM
Congratulations to BOTH of you!  It's great to see Bruce's massive work coming to fruition, and even better, with Byron's help.

Best to all,

John
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: jr on September 21, 2010, 02:42:51 PM
That is great news for both Byron and Bruce. I would like to hear the details on how the different putters were determined to use in the fitting program and what the differences each of the designs are suppose to accomplish.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: Herd8497 on September 21, 2010, 02:44:09 PM
Best of luck in the endeavor.  Would love to see the backs of the blades and a toe hang shot.  Certainly is going to hear Bruce's perspective on fitting with these putters.

Really exciting news!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: apprenti23 on September 21, 2010, 03:21:01 PM
very cool!

going to be in the monthly pga magazine at all anytime in the near future? love to read up about it.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on September 21, 2010, 03:30:51 PM
I am sure that as soon as Bruce has some time he will be here to post the interesting details on his designs (Bruce designed shapes and neck placements) and how his fitting program works. 
 
On a related note, Bruce and I have also discussed the possibility of him attending the Byron Mixer in the spring and doing putter fittings for the participants.  No promises yet, but this would be tremendous if it comes together...  Will keep you posted...  :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: Thaddy on September 21, 2010, 03:36:06 PM
I'm assuming the neck placements will have A LOT to do with each participants stroke and how it works with different tow hang options.  I very much like Bruce's scientific approach to putting and putter fittings, I can't wait to hear what he has to say!

Dave, I'm assuming the spring Mixer will be in HB again?  This time I really need to make the trip...
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on September 21, 2010, 03:40:08 PM
I'm assuming the neck placements will have A LOT to do with each participants stroke and how it works with different tow hang options.  I very much like Bruce's scientific approach to putting and putter fittings, I can't wait to hear what he has to say!

Dave, I'm assuming the spring Mixer will be in HB again?  This time I really need to make the trip...

Yes, definitely in HB!  I can't think of a better place.  Watch this thread for the details:  http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php?topic=22071.0 (http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php?topic=22071.0)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yoshiod9 on September 21, 2010, 04:30:11 PM
I am sure that as soon as Bruce has some time he will be here to post the interesting details on his designs (Bruce designed shapes and neck placements) and how his fitting program works. 
 
On a related note, Bruce and I have also discussed the possibility of him attending the Byron Mixer in the spring and doing putter fittings for the participants.  No promises yet, but this would be tremendous if it comes together...  Will keep you posted...  :)

Noooo... I would be murdered by the gf if I found out that I didn't have the right putter because, obviously, I'd have to buy a lot of new putters that actually work for my stroke.  :D

Really excited about this collaboration!  Very cool.  :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yoshiod9 on September 21, 2010, 04:36:10 PM
Yes, definitely in HB!  I can't think of a better place.  Watch this thread for the details:  http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php?topic=22071.0 (http://puttertalk.com/community/index.php?topic=22071.0)

Just saw the possible dates for the Mixer... I won't be able to make it those weeks because I'm taking 63 8th graders to Washington D.C., New York, and Philadelphia over part of our Spring Break (April 23rd-April 30th).  DANG!  Here's to hoping Bruce can only make it out there sometime in mid-late March like last year's Mixer!  :D
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: JCL on September 21, 2010, 08:42:56 PM
Hopefully at least one of my putters is the right style.  Those putters look like they are all blades.  Am I seeing that right?

John
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yoshiod9 on September 21, 2010, 09:17:01 PM
They look pretty blade-like to me, too, John.  Maybe 1/2 inch thick.  Talk about needing to hit the sweet spot...
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: Maverickping on September 21, 2010, 09:59:41 PM
Sounds great! You have Byron and Bruce was one of the big wheels from SAM involved, only good things are going to come from this.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: T.J. on September 21, 2010, 11:40:56 PM
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, gonna have to try it, maybe been buying the wrong type putters  ::) ??? 8) ;D
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: MSaternus on September 21, 2010, 11:47:15 PM
This sounds like a tremendous collaboration.  I'm excited to see how this progresses.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on September 22, 2010, 12:18:04 AM
I think that you will find Bruce's revelations about the putters and how they help him fit players to the optimal putter very intriguing.  The shape of the putters is NOT an indication that we should all be using a blade.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: drewspin on September 22, 2010, 10:13:47 AM
What a fantastic collaboration!  I can't wait to read more.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 22, 2010, 10:29:37 AM
Wow, where to start. First thanks to Byron and Dave for helping me get this off the ground!!!! They have been great, especially in the understanding of this as a work in progress. Second never a negative or personal opinion at any time, especially as they are more qualiifed as any I know to have one yet they let me do my thing. For someone who has taken a path different from the norm they will never know how much I appreciate that.

Second, I will try to answer any question I can. if I seem vague I am still trying to figure out how to introduce this. I decided a long time ago if I started to share this information I would do it on this forum and then in Bryons section. The forum has been an inspiration for me and it the only way for now to give something back.

I need to share the information in small segments as I still have a full time job but here is the start.

I call the putters skeletons. They are the six styles we have identified that suit all of the test strokes in our study. So in other words it is our assumption that all of you would be able to find a putter based on these six profiles.

Toe hang was not a consideration in building these. I think the influences on toe hang are more important than the finished measurement. We have seen hundreds of examples of players reacting different ly to a 4:30 hang. So if it is a consideration for you as a player we think it comes farther down the fitting timeline and should not be the initial consideration. It reminds me a little of swingweight. many ways to achieve the same thing. 
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: jh on September 22, 2010, 10:43:09 AM
More pics please! LOL

Congrats to both parties!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 22, 2010, 10:45:47 AM
jh,

look at the line up of 6 and tell me which one fits your stroke.

3 are offset 3 have zero offset.

Bruce
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 22, 2010, 10:51:12 AM
The most exciting part for me is that once a decision is made, and the putter fit and built. I have 6 different instruction books. A different one for each style based on what we found on how our instruction varied based on putting styles.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 22, 2010, 11:25:01 AM
I think that you will find Bruce's revelations about the putters and how they help him fit players to the optimal putter very intriguing.  The shape of the putters is NOT an indication that we should all be using a blade.

Right just the start. At the very least the fitting is a process and in no way eliminates personal preference.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: kints on September 22, 2010, 11:54:43 AM
This is very interesting, I want to learn more. 
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 22, 2010, 12:18:33 PM
very cool!

going to be in the monthly pga magazine at all anytime in the near future? love to read up about it.

I plan to introduct the program to PGA members starting this fall. I have about 25 appointments right now and I don't get the first portos until this week. PM me if you are interested.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yaupon17 on September 22, 2010, 02:53:16 PM
I just wanted to chime in as I can give an actual hand's on experience with this, what I think will be, revolutionary fitting system.

Over the summer I trek'ed from Philadelphia to Plymouth, Indiana with the sole purpose of working with Bruce.  In addition to working on putting with Bruce, coincidentally I wanted to also make sure that the putter that I was using was right for my stroke.  As I am working with him outside, the UPS guy arrives and brings out a box and Bruce gets extremely excited.  I'm thinking that this is some completely custom, pimp'ed out putter, but it was anything but.  The original "prototype" was a black version of the heel shafted "putter" pictured above.

Bruce then takes the putter and rolls a few putts before he hands it to me.  I really don't know what to think as he hasn't explained anything to me.  I put a ball down about 10 feet away from the hole and I decide to move it a bit closer (more like 2-3 feet).  I proceed to not even sniff the hole from that distance even though I took my normal stroke.  I look over at Bruce and he smiles and tells me to keep trying.  I then miss another one, although I think that one burned the edge.  So, now, in my mind, I'm trying to figure how how to make this short putt with this "skeleton" of a putter and take some practice strokes.  Something in my head clicks to make more of an arc stroke and I start making putts.  I look over at Bruce again and he is smiling and nodding his head.

He then explains the concept of this fitting system and the 6 strokes.  I was extremely impressed and can see how this could be an invaluable system for pros and amateurs alike.

I feel extremely privileged to have been there on the day the prototype arrived and validated the system with just a couple of missed short putts.  I wish you both the best of luck with this system.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 22, 2010, 03:15:26 PM
I just wanted to chime in as I can give an actual hand's on experience with this, what I think will be, revolutionary fitting system.

Over the summer I trek'ed from Philadelphia to Plymouth, Indiana with the sole purpose of working with Bruce.  In addition to working on putting with Bruce, coincidentally I wanted to also make sure that the putter that I was using was right for my stroke.  As I am working with him outside, the UPS guy arrives and brings out a box and Bruce gets extremely excited.  I'm thinking that this is some completely custom, pimp'ed out putter, but it was anything but.  The original "prototype" was a black version of the heel shafted "putter" pictured above.

Bruce then takes the putter and rolls a few putts before he hands it to me.  I really don't know what to think as he hasn't explained anything to me.  I put a ball down about 10 feet away from the hole and I decide to move it a bit closer (more like 2-3 feet).  I proceed to not even sniff the hole from that distance even though I took my normal stroke.  I look over at Bruce and he smiles and tells me to keep trying.  I then miss another one, although I think that one burned the edge.  So, now, in my mind, I'm trying to figure how how to make this short putt with this "skeleton" of a putter and take some practice strokes.  Something in my head clicks to make more of an arc stroke and I start making putts.  I look over at Bruce again and he is smiling and nodding his head.

He then explains the concept of this fitting system and the 6 strokes.  I was extremely impressed and can see how this could be an invaluable system for pros and amateurs alike.

I feel extremely privileged to have been there on the day the prototype arrived and validated the system with just a couple of missed short putts.  I wish you both the best of luck with this system.

Yaupon17 has the first custom putter built based on our fitting criteria. thanks for all your support!!!!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yaupon17 on September 22, 2010, 03:24:23 PM
Yaupon17 has the first custom putter built based on our fitting criteria. thanks for all your support!!!!

And we quickly learned that a heel shafted putter isn't right for my stroke, didn't we?  :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 22, 2010, 03:28:33 PM
Step One.
We are convinced that posture is a function of vision and forced posture can create an inaccurate perception of target.
Step Two.
We believe posture should determine path shape and depending on your source of motion the direction of your stroke. Controversy #1 Everyone has a directional bias in their stroke! We think you should use it rather than fight it.
Step Three. Putter must fit posture in length, lie loft and design. Otherwise the stroke is forced and manipulated.
Our fit putters satisfy the 6 basic stroke profiles. Certain putter designs work best with certain strokes and from our findings much more to it than center shaft for sbst.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 22, 2010, 03:29:37 PM
Yaupon17 has the first custom putter built based on our fitting criteria. thanks for all your support!!!!

And we quickly learned that a heel shafted putter isn't right for my stroke, didn't we?  :)

The greatest missed putts of my life!!!!!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yoshiod9 on September 22, 2010, 04:32:50 PM
Very interesting... I've noticed that when I use my DBCM I change the way I stroke the putt when compared to the way I use my mini DH89. 

With this info, I actually am very interested to see what I am fit to.  I have a strong feeling that I'm using the right putter for me (my mini DH89).  I hope that the Mixer is earlier than mid-April! 
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: finalist on September 22, 2010, 07:31:33 PM
OK Bruce I'm sold!  See you in Huntington Beach next spring, right? pleease.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 23, 2010, 10:12:12 AM
I guess I'll keep posting until someone tells me to shut up.

One of the obvious things I have seen with Puttlab is how a player changes strokes based on what is in his hand. They react to the putter.

So lets say we built a robot that was an exact clone of a specific golfer. So when the robot is moved to mimic the players posture over a putt, how would the putter swing? This mechanical motion would produce a consistent stroke but with no feel. So once the measurements of the putter are determined to suit the posture, connect ball to player, then the element of feel has to be addressed. What we have found is that certain styles fit certain types of strokes, but more specifically certain amounts of rotation within the stroke. if a putter fits your natural rotation,  the stroke becomes more consistent and much easier to reproduce. At this point someone usually brings up path shape. Path shape has an influence on rotation arc will rotate more than straight. But rotation what you need to understand and while it is influenced by path shape it is a separate issue.
On of the secrets in golf is learning to control the toe of the golf club.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: kints on September 23, 2010, 10:15:21 AM
Please keep posting, I am very interested.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 23, 2010, 10:33:20 AM
The catalyst for Byron's and my relationship was his approach to the Bombora putter. With that one design he was able to satisfy any fitting need I discovered from our study. A conversation with Dave and Byron producing of of the models for me got the ball rolling.

One think I hope is clear. The 6 models are just the start point. they represent what I have found is the critical decision when choosing a putter. How the neck attaches to the head. All other considerations come after that decision is made. How the putter evolves from there depends on the player. From six skeletons there are a million options.

Having said that I can also say that every putter ever produced byt any maufacturer, fits a profile some are good for more than one. Some are specific to one style. at the Acdemy we refer to our student s by category number. for example slow rotation #4 or fast closing # 6.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: reflog74 on September 23, 2010, 10:36:59 AM
Bruce,

I'm loving your posts, Bruce.  Unless you are planning to re-print this material somewhere else, I'll "sticky" this thread.

John
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 23, 2010, 10:41:01 AM
reflog74 - std rotation #3
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: reflog74 on September 23, 2010, 10:46:11 AM
reflog74 - std rotation #3

Wow!  How'd you know my nickname around the office?   ;D

John
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: finalist on September 23, 2010, 11:11:58 AM
Hmmm... std rotation #3 must be 4:30 toe hang with full shaft of offset = standard plumber's neck DH89?

Bruce, Do you have theories on grip thickness? I find that's one of my favorite areas to fine tune.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yaupon17 on September 23, 2010, 11:14:45 AM
Ryan,

While I don't know if he has a theory on grip thickness, I do know that Bruce is a big propoent of using a round grip.  Such a simple change made a HUGE improvement to my putting.  Add to that a putter that is properly fit to my stroke and I am putting better than I ever have in my life.

Working with Bruce just one time helped me drop my index 3 strokes in just over 2 months so I am really looking forward to practicing a lot over the winter and coming out strong next season.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 23, 2010, 11:33:44 AM
Hmmm... std rotation #3 must be 4:30 toe hang with full shaft of offset = standard plumber's neck DH89?

Bruce, Do you have theories on grip thickness? I find that's one of my favorite areas to fine tune.

Ryan - Unfortunately we probably have some thoughts on everything :) first I think grip size and head weight go hand in hand. I am convinced the heavier putter heads are a big contributor to the bigger grips. I think in terms of rotation. heavier putters slow rotation, lighter putters seem to help speed up rotation. So lets say we ahve a heavy putter with a grip that is too small. The miss starts as a push for a right hander. he then tries to rotate the putter faster by throwing the bottom hand into the stroke. The results don't improve and now the stroke feels more wristy or loose. the bigger grip helps speed the rotation by changing the balance of the putter to the stroke. The player doesn't have to work as hard to square the putter. In my opinion using grip size to compensate in this way is a bit of a band aid. But I don't have to buy a new putter everytime I make a discovery. In my perfect world putter matches style, weight to rotation, grip size for the best feel. tiger is a good example of this. High rotation small grip. personally I think the mistake comes if he adds weight to the putter as it is well know that he has troubles when his rotation slows. Lighter head would be better in this case.

There are a number of forum members who prefer lighter heads. I think in most cases these players use heel shafted putters which are least resistant to rotation.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: finalist on September 23, 2010, 11:33:55 AM
That's interesting you mentioned a round putter grip. A guy I know who spends more time than anyone I know practicing his putting in productive ways uses a round grip on his putter.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: kints on September 23, 2010, 11:36:33 AM
so if you go round....just a standard round?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: reflog74 on September 23, 2010, 11:37:48 AM
Hmmm... std rotation #3 must be 4:30 toe hang with full shaft of offset = standard plumber's neck DH89?

Bruce, Do you have theories on grip thickness? I find that's one of my favorite areas to fine tune.

Well, if I've learned anything from Bruce, it's that "Std Rotation #3" with my posture works best with putters shafted more toward the heel (DH89 is fine; DBCM might encourage too much rotation), 35" and 330g (any heavier makes it harder to get the toe back to square at impact).  Now, a Bombora set up like this would work very nicely, but here's where looks and personal preference come into play.  I'm more confident standing over an Anser style/heel-toe-weighted putter.  They fit my eye and I can get them aimed correctly.

How'd I do, Coach Bruce?

John
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yaupon17 on September 23, 2010, 11:38:04 AM
That's interesting you mentioned a round putter grip. A guy I know who spends more time than anyone I know practicing his putting in productive ways uses a round grip on his putter.

At first it felt really awkward, but when I started to see putts rolling much better without trying to manipulate the stroke, that feeling went away very quickly.  I picked up a putter the other day with a regular putter grip and it felt extremely weird.  :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yaupon17 on September 23, 2010, 11:39:18 AM
so if you go round....just a standard round?

That's what I did.

The funny thing as people have tried my putter with the round grip, virtually all of them said that it felt better.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 23, 2010, 11:47:29 AM
My goal is to eliminate the "steer" move in most strokes. Without the influence of a flat grip the rotation becomes natural and uninterupted. The round helps. I use a golf pride mid size with about 10 layers of tape. I am not a big fan of oversized paddles. the flat portion has too much room for error.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 23, 2010, 12:03:25 PM
Hmmm... std rotation #3 must be 4:30 toe hang with full shaft of offset = standard plumber's neck DH89?

Bruce, Do you have theories on grip thickness? I find that's one of my favorite areas to fine tune.

Ryan - Your are right. Actually it is full shaft offset shaft axis halfway between the heel and center.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: putterplating on September 23, 2010, 12:35:49 PM
Great thread!  It is awesome to see Bruce & Byron joining together to showcase their skills!!

IMHO, this should have it's own section so it shows up on the first page for all to see.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 24, 2010, 07:44:56 AM
i apologize for the random nature of my comments.

One of the things I hoped to achieve was to have a fitting system that was not instruction or method biased. at this point all fitting systems demand a certain posture or are forced by method. we know that doesn't work for everyone. I have studied as many theories as possible and while they are all great methods! there is no best way for everyone! There are, however, putters that suit methods because of the demands of the method. Utley, Pelz, Stockton each irequires a different fit. I strongly believe that the putter you like can determine the basics of the method you will use. So as a player you have two choices. Fit the putter to the method, or find or create a method for your favorite putter. so if you are having problems one doesn't match the other.  The system was designed to be versatile. If you have a specific method we can show you the appropriate fit and putter. Look at the method teachers. all developed their method with a certain type of putter. Utley used an Anser, Stockton used a heel shafted mallet. Jackie Burke Jr a heel shafted blade The putter type fit the stroke path and direction

The fitting system is based on controlling rotation. Not minimize but control. There is an optimum rotation for any path shape and direction and the right putter will help you control that.
Why did we base the fit on rotation?

Direction off the putter is determined by face angle at impact 82% while path contributes only 18%. So how the putter moves during the stroke is 4 times more important than the direction the putter swings. In addition rotation has a large impact on speed. A high rotation stroke has much more energy than a low rotation stroke. For you sbst players this explains the additional weight you tend to prefer as a group.  there is a speed benefit. This why the weight of the putter is a major factor in the fit and we believe should be added or taken away for the right reasons.
So we believe that feel for speed is a rotation issue as well.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on September 24, 2010, 12:35:27 PM
Wow Bruce, great stuff!!!  I feel smarter already!  :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on September 24, 2010, 12:38:14 PM
I expect that when Bruce is ready to reveal more details about what he is doing and how he is rolling it out to the world there will be a thread focused on that information in a different section of PT.  This thread is more of a celebration of Bruce's program and Byron's talent coming together.

Great thread!  It is awesome to see Bruce & Byron joining together to showcase their skills!!

IMHO, this should have it's own section so it shows up on the first page for all to see.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 24, 2010, 12:58:23 PM
Another issue the fitting system addresses is lie angle to putter design. Our study showed us we have forced many players to shorter putters to suit certain design aspects. Where a player might have a very consistent stroke at 35 and 69 but have a preference for a face balanced mallet. The mallet is no longer face balanced at that setup.

We fought this battle a great deal with some of our younger competitive players who prefered to try a certain insect type putter. In order to make that particular putter work we had to force the posture to accept the putter fit. Or bend the putter to accept the fit. either way, it was a disaster 100% of the time.



Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 24, 2010, 01:04:00 PM
Hmmm... std rotation #3 must be 4:30 toe hang with full shaft of offset = standard plumber's neck DH89?

Bruce, Do you have theories on grip thickness? I find that's one of my favorite areas to fine tune.


Well, if I've learned anything from Bruce, it's that "Std Rotation #3" with my posture works best with putters shafted more toward the heel (DH89 is fine; DBCM might encourage too much rotation), 35" and 330g (any heavier makes it harder to get the toe back to square at impact).  Now, a Bombora set up like this would work very nicely, but here's where looks and personal preference come into play.  I'm more confident standing over an Anser style/heel-toe-weighted putter.  They fit my eye and I can get them aimed correctly.

How'd I do, Coach Bruce?

John
sorry John, Imissed this.I couldn't have said this better myself!!!!!!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 26, 2010, 08:23:23 PM
Jim Furyck - Low Rotation #6  No line!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: simmons_m on September 27, 2010, 12:42:47 AM
I leave for a couple of weeks, and this is what I come back to.  Now my head is spinning.
This really sounds like great stuff.  Thanks Bruce.  Congratulations on the partnership.   
Can't wait until there is a fitter in AZ.
Mike
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 27, 2010, 01:25:59 PM
The putters arrived on Friday!!! They are just what I had hoped for. We did some quick tests with people in the Academy over the weekend and so far so good.

One of the discoveries we wondered about seems to be true. No alignment aids on the test putters, the same blade shape and the only difference is relationship of shaft axis to putter, players aimed each model differently. Right aimers improved as the shaft axis moved toward the center. Left aimers improved as the shaft axis moved toward the heel.

This is just speculation at this point as the data sample is still small, but it backs what we thought we were seeing in the original study. We don't have enough tests without other visual aids on putters. But I have enough to be confident enough to post this. Vision is impacted by putter design which forces posture which forces path and direction which determines which design to use. It is all a big circle and helps explain why certain putters work well with certain strokes. i often read that good putters can putt with anything. I have never believed that to be true. I am convinced that good putters are made not born and the putter is a huge influence.

This does not negate the effect of visual aligment aids, just adds to the confusion. But it does convince me that certain combinations of lines and shaft placement are to be avioded for certain players and these problems can be predictable.

For example a double bend shaft face balanced putter with a line in the cavity of the putter will not work well for someone aims left.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: simmons_m on September 28, 2010, 12:13:14 AM
What's the best way to determine if you are left or a right alignment putter?
Today on the practice green, i found that i have the tendency to keep the cup above my putting line.  (right handed putter, left hand low grip, cup to the right of my line)
I think this makes me a left alignment putter, and may explain why a two-ball never worked for me. Trying to make sure i am getting the concept down.
Thanks Bruce,  I think this is very interesting, and look forward to reading more.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 28, 2010, 09:29:36 AM
What's the best way to determine if you are left or a right alignment putter?
Today on the practice green, i found that i have the tendency to keep the cup above my putting line.  (right handed putter, left hand low grip, cup to the right of my line)
I think this makes me a left alignment putter, and may explain why a two-ball never worked for me. Trying to make sure i am getting the concept down.
Thanks Bruce,  I think this is very interesting, and look forward to reading more.
Send me a pm and I'll be glad to walk you through it. However, keeping the hole to the right of your line is about the best description you could give. When combined with the left hand low it gives me a pretty clear picture of your setup.

Can you describe your posture and tell me where your eyes are relative to the ball or look at the three posted pictures and pick which posutre best describes your own.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 28, 2010, 09:44:07 AM
Choose one.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: pcirelli on September 28, 2010, 09:53:09 AM
Depends on if your eyes should be over (1) or inside (2) the ball.

I wish I didn't live so far away from you. I'd love to test my putters set up against your theories. Very interesting stuff, so please keep feeding us!!!
-Pete
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: pcirelli on September 28, 2010, 09:54:06 AM
Bruce: Also, how much of a role does your grip play in all of this? Thx.
-Pete
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: simmons_m on September 28, 2010, 11:55:24 AM
I was way off.   Thank you Bruce, a picture is worth 1000 words.
My setup is most similar to the 2nd one. (middle)
Thanks, I will follow-up with a PM
Thank you
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 28, 2010, 03:05:54 PM
Bruce: Also, how much of a role does your grip play in all of this? Thx.
-Pete

The grip is the most subjective of all the choices. We have found that grip preferences can change with balance, weight or with a change in how you grip the putter. The most versatile grip is round, but having said that I think there is such a thing as the perfect fit of hands on putter and a grip profile has to influence that. I have seen that people who have a favorite grip also tend to stick to a certain design of putter. for example the PingMan grip guys often pair up with the Anser style. Utley and Tiger Woods to name two of many.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 28, 2010, 03:18:04 PM
Posture and Direction.

The pictures of the posture help us dictate the correct or expected amount of rotation.

The path direction is determined by a number of factors. 1. Shoulder alignment. 2. Spine tilt. 3. Source of motion

Left path factors shoulders level, conventional grip, open stance, left hand lead, low hands, shoulder rock strokes, ball forward with open shoulders etc. Left path players need putters that are slow to close on the forward swing.

Right path players. back shoulder lower than front, Closed stance, right hand stroke, left hand low with square shoulders(furyck) high hands, Right path players need putters that easily close.

The trick is to have the right face to path relationship to get square to the target at impact. Using the path direction to square the face is inefficient and inconsistent and to be honest way to hard to achieve.

Our fitting program is based on a concept called tilted plane. Everyone has a directional bias. this is casued by a tilted plane. too many players try to fix it rather than use it. We found the best putters in the test matched the best putters in history by using the tilted plane to their advantage.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: pcirelli on September 28, 2010, 03:20:40 PM
Bruce: Also, how much of a role does your grip play in all of this? Thx.
-Pete

The grip is the most subjective of all the choices. We have found that grip preferences can change with balance, weight or with a change in how you grip the putter. The most versatile grip is round, but having said that I think there is such a thing as the perfect fit of hands on putter and a grip profile has to influence that. I have seen that people who have a favorite grip also tend to stick to a certain design of putter. for example the PingMan grip guys often pair up with the Anser style. Utley and Tiger Woods to name two of many.
Bruce: I suppose I should clarify on "grip". I was referring to how you grip/hold the putter, although you may have answered some of this in previous posts. Sorry for the confusion!
-pete
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on September 28, 2010, 03:40:58 PM
Bruce: Also, how much of a role does your grip play in all of this? Thx.
-Pete

The grip is the most subjective of all the choices. We have found that grip preferences can change with balance, weight or with a change in how you grip the putter. The most versatile grip is round, but having said that I think there is such a thing as the perfect fit of hands on putter and a grip profile has to influence that. I have seen that people who have a favorite grip also tend to stick to a certain design of putter. for example the PingMan grip guys often pair up with the Anser style. Utley and Tiger Woods to name two of many.
Bruce: I suppose I should clarify on "grip". I was referring to how you grip/hold the putter, although you may have answered some of this in previous posts. Sorry for the confusion!
-pete

No question! How my hands are placed on the club critical and when we fit to the players grip style, as the fit of the putter certainly changes if the placement of the hands change!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those who experiment with hand placement often stop after the fit. Nothing else feels right.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: djd on October 01, 2010, 01:44:44 PM
Posture and Direction.

The pictures of the posture help us dictate the correct or expected amount of rotation.

The path direction is determined by a number of factors. 1. Shoulder alignment. 2. Spine tilt. 3. Source of motion

Left path factors shoulders level, conventional grip, open stance, left hand lead, low hands, shoulder rock strokes, ball forward with open shoulders etc. Left path players need putters that are slow to close on the forward swing.

Right path players. back shoulder lower than front, Closed stance, right hand stroke, left hand low with square shoulders(furyck) high hands, Right path players need putters that easily close.

The trick is to have the right face to path relationship to get square to the target at impact. Using the path direction to square the face is inefficient and inconsistent and to be honest way to hard to achieve.

Our fitting program is based on a concept called tilted plane. Everyone has a directional bias. this is casued by a tilted plane. too many players try to fix it rather than use it. We found the best putters in the test matched the best putters in history by using the tilted plane to their advantage.


bruce-  i realize that having a stroke that delivers the putter face square to the intended target line during the impact interval is the ultimate goal but what is the first step- is it getting a putter that you can aim accurately at the intended target line at address?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on October 01, 2010, 03:02:37 PM
bruce-  i realize that having a stroke that delivers the putter face square to the intended target line during the impact interval is the ultimate goal but what is the first step- is it getting a putter that you can aim accurately at the intended target line at address?

I'd think that the first order of business is to build a reliable, repeatable stroke coupled with a consistent preshot routine and then go through Bruce's fitting system to find the optimal putter for you.  Bruce?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 01, 2010, 03:03:55 PM
djd,

I think it is a mistake to use aim as a criteria for putter selection. For example you might like a high moi mallet because you aim it well and and never putt well becasue you require a putter that rotates more easily. Many TM Spider owners that fought that battle. There a thousands of great aimers who cannot putt.

We think aiming is a function of eye and head position and not putter design. If I give you any putter and a straight line reference you will move your head and eyes until it looks correct to you. If that is a comfortable posture that you can easily find and repeat. Perfect lets go with that. Consistency is what we are looking for.

Also over half of the players we tested could not see any line on a putter accurately. A little over 60% were much better aimers when there was no line or just a dot.

So because of these issues and others we think it is important to find the right balance and design for the stroke and then deal with the aiming aspect.
For example, lets say you decide that you go through the process and we decide that a DH89 is the best model for your stroke. Now you can decide the cosmetics that work best for you. As a general rule right aimers will benfit form a line in the cavity. Left aimers a site dot or nothing at all.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 01, 2010, 03:05:50 PM
bruce-  i realize that having a stroke that delivers the putter face square to the intended target line during the impact interval is the ultimate goal but what is the first step- is it getting a putter that you can aim accurately at the intended target line at address?

I'd think that the first order of business is to build a reliable, repeatable stroke coupled with a consistent preshot routine and then go through Bruce's fitting system to find the optimal putter for you.  Bruce?

Yep. Or let us help you find that reliable stroke through the fitting process. That is what we have been doing at the Academy. Finding the best set up for aim and comfort. Fit the putter to that posture.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: jhchop on October 01, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
Bruce. Is there any way for you to make a recommendation based on PuttLab PDF's I sent you last year, or for that matter, new PDF's someone would send you.
I think it's fantastic that you and Morgan would team up like this. Thx..John H
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: djd on October 01, 2010, 03:22:50 PM
bruce has it been your experience that golfers who could aim the putter great but had a suboptimal set-up and stroke for their particular biases (e.g: perfect aim with a short shafted, upright mallet and SBST stroke but unable to hit the hole despite the perfect aim) auto correct their stroke and efficiency just with a change in putter even if that change introduces an aiming bias (for instance, the golfer with the perfect aim with a mallet switches to a heel shafted, flat lie, longer shafted blade and although he now consistently aims 3* left at address consistently starts to roll the ball on his target line with an arc stroke)?  If so, i guess those aiming lasers are of limited value.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 01, 2010, 03:23:20 PM
Bruce. Is there any way for you to make a recommendation based on PuttLab PDF's I sent you last year, or for that matter, new PDF's someone would send you.
I think it's fantastic that you and Morgan would team up like this. Thx..John H

John - Sure, do you want to do it here or should I pm you?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 01, 2010, 03:32:56 PM
bruce has it been your experience that golfers who could aim the putter great but had a suboptimal set-up and stroke for their particular biases (e.g: perfect aim with a short shafted, upright mallet and SBST stroke but unable to hit the hole despite the perfect aim) auto correct their stroke and efficiency just with a change in putter even if that change introduces an aiming bias (for instance, the golfer with the perfect aim with a mallet switches to a heel shafted, flat lie, longer shafted blade and although he now consistently aims 3* left at address consistently starts to roll the ball on his target line with an arc stroke)?  If so, i guess those aiming lasers are of limited value.


Early on when we brought Puttlab ot the US there was a story about a legendary putter. He set the putter down 3 or 4 degrees right of the target line every time and swung it back to square everytime. When we commented about the direction of his aim he said it was perfect and for him it was. so rather than adjusting path he fixed his rotation by moving the start point. I will tell you that from that mommnet however I knew the putter was important in his process. He has used the same model his whole life and built the stroke around the characteristics of that putter. My Day Ping was the original.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: jhchop on October 01, 2010, 03:41:00 PM
If you think others would benefit from the interchange, I'm fine with doing it here, Bruce. Your call. Thx

Bruce. Is there any way for you to make a recommendation based on PuttLab PDF's I sent you last year, or for that matter, new PDF's someone would send you.
I think it's fantastic that you and Morgan would team up like this. Thx..John H

John - Sure, do you want to do it here or should I pm you?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 01, 2010, 04:53:34 PM
Lets do it here. John was one of the reasons I pushed harder on the putter fitting aspect of our study. Thanks John! He sent me two reports a year ago and I stuggled a little with a solution as far as putter selection at the time. He is what we call Profile 1.

John has a sbst path with a inside out bias. 1-2 degrees right.  Because of the direction bias to the right we need a putter which will help the player swing with the face slightly closed to the path. These are typically offset and shaft axis toward the heel of the putter. But for John that is too much rotation. He sent me two reports. One was a high moi putter that didn't he couldn't rotate enough, the other a heel shafted blade that he rotates too much.

The solution comes in a putter where the shaft axis is in front of the putter and centered. These are typically long neck blades and some offset double bend mallets. Because of the more upright plane of his stroke we would look to go shorter rather than longer. Of the two putters we compared one was 34 and one was 35 We would suggest 34.

As far as weight heavier slows the rotation and lighter speeds the rotation. So depending on preferance look to a little heavier rather than lighter 340-350 ish. We like heavier putters with straight paths.

So a Long Pipe or long neck and a full shaft offset on any of Bryon's blades. No mini though sorry.
A little of a disclaimer.

This is a conssitent stroke and we are fitting to this stroke. if I saw it in person I might make an adjustment. Hand position etc. This would not change the basic selection. for example John aims slightly right. I would typically move him closer another reason for 34 inches or put a line in the cavity of the putter.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: jhchop on October 01, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
Thx, Bruce. Now an update; let's see if this is consistant with your thoughts.

You may not recall, but originally we found that I aimed far better with a dot than a line, so based on all of what I did - and we discussed - I put the 35" putter, 340 grams (with a line) in the rack and went to a 33.5" putter (was much more comfortable closer to the ball and more upright postured like your pic number 1 above), blade design, towards the heel shaft - 1 offset, 351 grams, oval on top of face. Results are much improved, but not 100% there. My current putter has a short stove pipe neck, not a long neck, and a toe hang of about 4:30.

So, Bruce, as a next step in evolution, do I have this spec'ed correctly?  Morgan Bombara - 33.5" - 360-365 grams (?) - long pipe - face balanced (?) - oval or dot - standard lie.

I'm thinking 360 gram range, Bruce, as I can loose the putter on 2 footers - get wobbly.
Length of 33.5 may be perfect as it gets me over the ball with great posture.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 02, 2010, 08:20:51 AM
Thx, Bruce. Now an update; let's see if this is consistant with your thoughts.

You may not recall, but originally we found that I aimed far better with a dot than a line, so based on all of what I did - and we discussed - I put the 35" putter, 340 grams (with a line) in the rack and went to a 33.5" putter (was much more comfortable closer to the ball and more upright postured like your pic number 1 above), blade design, towards the heel shaft - 1 offset, 351 grams, oval on top of face. Results are much improved, but not 100% there. My current putter has a short stove pipe neck, not a long neck, and a toe hang of about 4:30.

So, Bruce, as a next step in evolution, do I have this spec'ed correctly?  Morgan Bombara - 33.5" - 360-365 grams (?) - long pipe - face balanced (?) - oval or dot - standard lie.

I'm thinking 360 gram range, Bruce, as I can loose the putter on 2 footers - get wobbly.
Length of 33.5 may be perfect as it gets me over the ball with great posture.

Thoughts?

John,

I remember it was a Titleist right?
The down side of that putter was the tendency to have too much rotation at impact.

I think the Bombora would be perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But no less than 1/2 shaft offset.

I cannot say that more strongly and if it doesn't work come on the forum and tell everyone it didn't and blame me for the result.

Thanks for recommending me to Mitch by the way. Alot of good for me has come from that relationship.

Bruce
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: jhchop on October 02, 2010, 08:39:25 AM
Yes, Bruce, it was a Titleist. Mitch is a great guy. I know he came to see you for several days in the summer; I almost committed as well, but my business travel schedule has been brutal this year. But, I'm glad it work out for both of you!

So, please let me get this straight. ALL of the spec's above work for you? If I go 1 full offset with a long pipe neck, should the face have some toe hang to resist closing through impact or should it be long neck face balanced, Bruce? You're okay with the 360's range and the 33.5 length?

Thx so much, again, for everything.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 02, 2010, 09:12:06 AM
Absolutely,

First we need a putter swings well on an up right plane. This where the long pipe works. It moves the shaft axis to the center. Don't worry about face balance the offset is what controls the rotation. We have seen dozens of face balance offset putters that rotate faster than the same face balanced putter without the offset. We don't recommend building to toehang. Build what you need and the face balance is what it is. If I were to guess this one will be around 4.

We need a putter that won't resist a small forward rotation at impact. Offset shaft.

We are looking for some weight to stabilize the stroke and minimize the desire to hit the putt rather than stroke the putt. In both reports you sent me there was some right hand activity at impact, the weight will help.

Shorter length matches the upright plane. Right aimer improving by getting closer to the ball is very common!

Finally a great design that looks good without a line!


A great choice!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: jhchop on October 02, 2010, 09:30:17 AM
Awesome! Perfect, Bruce!

Steve - Dave - I will be putting an order in for a Bombora based on Bruce,s design recommendations. Do you think Byron can work with Bruce's comments with respect to neck/ face-closing needs?

Also, I think this collaboration is significant enough to warrant some kind of stamping designation. Just as one idea, on the heel portion of the face, vertically stamp MORGAN and USGA - in between the two stamp P1 - for Profile 1. Maybe just stamp collaboration on the back flange. Perhaps each idea is lame, but something should be done to honor the work Bruce and Byron are doing together.
Maybe this is lame, but
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 02, 2010, 10:22:25 AM
Awesome! Perfect, Bruce!

Steve - Dave - I will be putting an order in for a Bombora based on Bruce,s design recommendations. Do you think Byron can work with Bruce's comments with respect to neck/ face-closing needs?

Also, I think this collaboration is significant enough to warrant some kind of stamping designation. Just as one idea, on the heel portion of the face, vertically stamp MORGAN and USGA - in between the two stamp P1 - for Profile 1. Maybe just stamp collaboration on the back flange. Perhaps each idea is lame, but something should be done to honor the work Bruce and Byron are doing together.
Maybe this is lame, but

Byron does this neck in his sleep. :) This really cool John and Thanks for the confidence in my ramblings.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 09, 2010, 01:05:01 PM
I have had a number of inquiries about the posture pictures. What we want to know is the angle from the base of the neck to the ball. This angle dictates the minimum amount of rotation the putter in a stroke with no compensations.

If the putter balance (weight, offset, and to some extent moi combined and not just toe hang) does not match the required amount we see the player begin to steer the putter or have in irregular rotation through the ball. This steer is the #1 reason we miss a putt. No close second.

So you either need the right putter for your stroke based on your best posture and alignment. (this is the best way, satisfies the visual problems) Or you need to develop the stroke that suits the putter you like.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: drewspin on October 11, 2010, 02:29:12 PM

One think I hope is clear. The 6 models are just the start point. they represent what I have found is the critical decision when choosing a putter. How the neck attaches to the head. All other considerations come after that decision is made. How the putter evolves from there depends on the player. From six skeletons there are a million options.

Having said that I can also say that every putter ever produced byt any maufacturer, fits a profile some are good for more than one. Some are specific to one style. at the Acdemy we refer to our student s by category number. for example slow rotation #4 or fast closing # 6.

Bruce, do you find that players also adapt their stroke to fit the rear flange shape?

If so, is it to a lesser degree than how the neck attaches to the head?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 11, 2010, 03:24:26 PM
Drew,

The answer to you first question is yes, but not initially.  I will tell you that what was behind the face of the putter was something we looked at quite closely. We had to make sure it was shaft axis.

We found the biggest influences on how a player reacts to the putter are in order.

1. Fit -length lie etc.
2. Shaft axis (Feel beat visual the more feedback the bigger reaction)
3. Weight- MOI - COG (flange has influence here)
4. Visual (flange would be here aims heavily influenced )

It is all about feedback. How it feels in your hands once the putter is in motion.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: TonyT on October 11, 2010, 09:46:52 PM
Bruce;

Do great putters share anything constant?  Do bad putters share anything constant?

T



Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 12, 2010, 09:12:26 AM
Bruce;

Do great putters share anything constant?  Do bad putters share anything constant?

T




In common

1. Stroke matches posture!
2. Consistent timing and rhythm. they don't change their rhythm to suit the length of putt. They just change their stroke length.
3. PUTTER FITS IN DIMENSION AND PROPER FEEDBACK.


Bad putters are really good putters with bad information.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: TonyT on October 12, 2010, 11:10:02 PM
It is very interesting to read all of your findings.  I am from the complete opposite school of thought when it comes to putting/hitting a golf ball so I like to follow your posts.

T
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 15, 2010, 03:11:41 PM
It is very interesting to read all of your findings.  I am from the complete opposite school of thought when it comes to putting/hitting a golf ball so I like to follow your posts.

T

Good. A great example is the ball flight laws I was forced to learn as a PGA apprentice. Not fact - political. Thank god i liked to read. Search for the Perfect Swing (1969)set me straight.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: foreleft53 on October 15, 2010, 07:41:24 PM
very cool!

going to be in the monthly pga magazine at all anytime in the near future? love to read up about it.

I plan to introduct the program to PGA members starting this fall. I have about 25 appointments right now and I don't get the first portos until this week. PM me if you are interested.
I think this needs to be something that you follow up with.  I know a lot of PGA professionals in the Nor Cal and Northern Nevada area, so please let me know if there is anythin that I can do to help.  I will be at the mixer in HB and I am VERY interested in what you are doing. 
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on October 16, 2010, 10:47:49 PM
Based on putter lie angle and posture (angle of spine to ground) and body dimensions, there is a natural amount of rotation as the putter swings around the spine. If allowed to happen without interference the putter returns to the address position consistently.

Unless the posture matches many of the "square to path putting aids" on the market the rotation becomes manipulated.

Do you think a player can practice enough to overcome their natural tendencies?

and if not doesn't it make sense that the design of a putter could have a positive or negative influence.

My claim is with the most consistent strokes putter feel matchs natural rotation. The rest follows easily.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: TonyT on October 16, 2010, 11:36:16 PM
I don't think a player should overcome natural tendencies.  They should be incorporated into practice so that they can be understood, channeled, and relied upon when needed the most.

Can tendencies be taught/learned?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on November 15, 2010, 01:15:33 PM
I don't think a player should overcome natural tendencies.  They should be incorporated into practice so that they can be understood, channeled, and relied upon when needed the most.

Can tendencies be taught/learned?

Tony,

I took a little break passion was overiding common sense. I thought a good bit about your questions about tendencies. It threw me a little bit of a curve. I was convinced that tendencies were created. Vision, posture, alignment, and source of motion created a stroke, and any tendencies in the stroke, like more or less rotation than what would stay square to a path, or directional tendencies based on alignment or source of motion - inside out or outside in being the most common - would be part of the equation when creating a final strategy for your stroke.

But after working through the question I have to say the answer is yes, tendencies can be overcome. It would be the same as teaching a new tendency. However to overcome tendencies is not usually in your best interest, unless you can answer the question, why do I do what I do? Why do I use more rotation? Why do I force the path direction of my stroke? Why do I block the rotation of the putter at impact. If you can find the source of the tendency and understand how the whole system works then it is safe to try and change. There is a regular on the forum who has built his entire stroke and system successfully based on the idea of maintaining a straight line in his stroke. From position of his eyes to hand position, everything. To do so he had to fight natural tendencies every step of the way because while it is possible we are not built to swing a golf club from a side on position in a straight line. But he did it and it works. I am convinced his success comes not from the straight technique as it did from the work he put into the process of building the stroke.
 
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: reflog74 on November 15, 2010, 01:32:26 PM
Well put, Bruce.

As you know, I did just the opposite of the person you talk about.  I had tendencies based on being taught SBST and trying to keep the face square to the target throughout.  I decided those tendencies created more issues than trying to learn new tendencies based on an elliptical stroke with some face rotation.  To me, that made alot of sense.  I don't think I'd ever try to revert to the old way.

John
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: finalist on November 15, 2010, 01:41:03 PM
For me the only way to over come my natural tendencies is to see results fast and consistently. Otherwise my brain reverts back to what's ingrained. I need to be convinced in a hurry. I've also found the only way for me to change anything fast and consistently is to do it at a static address position. Once the swing starts moving it's on its own. Basically grip, shaft alignment, eye position, feet stance, etc are things I can easily change at address, and the good changes effect the swing motion.

It's like holding lag. Hard as heck to learn for some, but some can improve lag with a better grip -- A static change at address. Fundamentals: posture, grip, alignment.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on November 16, 2010, 04:13:32 PM
REALLY looking forward to having Bruce at the Mixer next year!!  :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: finalist on November 16, 2010, 04:38:46 PM
REALLY looking forward to having Bruce at the Mixer next year!!  :)

Same here. Will there be a putt off to see who gets to play in his group?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yoshiod9 on November 16, 2010, 05:03:52 PM
Seriously... I'm going to be a fly on the wall and just listen to the questions you guys ask of Bruce.  Super excited.  That being said, we all know that I'll be winning to putt off.  Perhaps Bruce can give me tips on the long game (short stuff is mostly ok for me... anything outside of 150, though, is trouble). 
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: dans4fun on November 18, 2010, 12:23:12 AM
 :)
     Who wins the putt off to play with Bruce, the better putter or the one's that need it the most?

                                                     Dan
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: dans4fun on January 21, 2011, 01:51:10 AM
 :)

     Two months, no reply.  I guess that officially makes me a thread killer!

                                                            Dan
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: waddman on January 21, 2011, 02:12:14 AM
haha Dan! Maybe you have stumped them
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on January 21, 2011, 12:34:51 PM
How can anyone using a Byron Design need putting help?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: Thaddy on January 24, 2011, 03:15:41 PM
Just booked my trip to the Mixer in June!  I'm very much looking forward to showing off my sub-par putting skills in front of everyone else :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on January 24, 2011, 03:28:01 PM
:)
     Who wins the putt off to play with Bruce, the better putter or the one's that need it the most?

                                                     Dan

Hmmm...  Will it be the 3 best putters, or the 3 worst?  I know, maybe a drinking contest, or perhaps schmoozing the guy making out the 4-somes is the way to go... ;)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: lightningbolt444 on January 26, 2011, 02:04:31 PM
Just booked my trip to the Mixer in June!  I'm very much looking forward to showing off my sub-par putting skills in front of everyone else :)

Looks like I have some competition for the most putts ;)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: Thaddy on January 26, 2011, 02:31:44 PM
Just booked my trip to the Mixer in June!  I'm very much looking forward to showing off my sub-par putting skills in front of everyone else :)

Looks like I have some competition for the most putts ;)

We should play together.  Bruce will have no choice but to play with us after watching us three-jack from 5 feet on the practice green :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: lightningbolt444 on January 26, 2011, 02:36:02 PM
Just booked my trip to the Mixer in June!  I'm very much looking forward to showing off my sub-par putting skills in front of everyone else :)

Looks like I have some competition for the most putts ;)

We should play together.  Bruce will have no choice but to play with us after watching us three-jack from 5 feet on the practice green :)
Ha Sounds like a plan to me  ;)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on January 27, 2011, 02:36:22 AM
Schmoozing the guy making out the foursomes is really the way to go...  ;)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: lightningbolt444 on January 27, 2011, 03:02:05 AM
Schmoozing the guy making out the foursomes is really the way to go...  ;)

Drinks on me Dave !!! ;)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on February 01, 2011, 11:32:23 AM
Finished the testing this week!

 :)

Time to go to work.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: Thaddy on February 04, 2011, 01:31:14 PM
Bruce, I'm interested in hearing about the progress you've made with your Bruce Blade.  Also, will you be bringing them to the Byron Mixer in June?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on February 04, 2011, 01:35:22 PM
Yes that is my plan.

I mentioned to Dave that I would share all the basics of our fitting and instruction to the group. I will have first drafts of the guidelines to all participants.

Maybe during cocktail hour. It will be easier to sell it merits then. :)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: finalist on February 04, 2011, 01:38:50 PM
Maybe during cocktail hour. It will be easier to sell it merits then. :)

By accident cocktail hour started at 10 AM last year. I didn't know it was so early because the sun was so bright in HB.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on February 04, 2011, 02:19:00 PM
Sounds good. Man I wish it was June.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: waddman on February 04, 2011, 04:06:57 PM
Schmoozing the guy making out the foursomes is really the way to go...  ;)

Perhaps a practice round at Pelican on Tuesday?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on February 09, 2011, 12:12:44 PM
Maybe during cocktail hour. It will be easier to sell it merits then. :)

By accident cocktail hour started at 10 AM last year. I didn't know it was so early because the sun was so bright in HB.

By accident?  I was there.  It was a plan, and it was a good plan!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: finalist on February 09, 2011, 12:37:39 PM
Maybe during cocktail hour. It will be easier to sell it merits then. :)

By accident cocktail hour started at 10 AM last year. I didn't know it was so early because the sun was so bright in HB.

By accident?  I was there.  It was a plan, and it was a good plan!

It was a great plan!

I cracked open a beer thinking/feeling it was afternoon. Didn't realize it was 10AM... once I found out I knew it was going to be a good day!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on February 09, 2011, 01:23:44 PM
I have some rules about drinking.

Bloody Mary's during daylight hours
Scotch when it is dark.
Beer as needed.

Really has worked well for me over the years.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: nvgolfdude on February 09, 2011, 01:30:50 PM
I have some rules about drinking.

Bloody Mary's during daylight hours
Scotch when it is dark.
Beer as needed.

Really has worked well for me over the years.

Words to live by...

The bar at Duke's is calling us...  8)
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: yoshiod9 on February 09, 2011, 02:16:18 PM
Maybe during cocktail hour. It will be easier to sell it merits then. :)

By accident cocktail hour started at 10 AM last year. I didn't know it was so early because the sun was so bright in HB.

By accident?  I was there.  It was a plan, and it was a good plan!

It was a great plan!

I cracked open a beer thinking/feeling it was afternoon. Didn't realize it was 10AM... once I found out I knew it was going to be a good day!

Yeah, it was a pretty darn good plan!  Haha.  As soon as I saw you grab one, I figured, "Hell, why not?"  It was a perfect start to the day. 
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: Thaddy on February 10, 2011, 09:01:39 AM
I have some rules about drinking.

Bloody Mary's during daylight hours
Scotch when it is dark.
Beer as needed.

Really has worked well for me over the years.

Only if I can top off my Bloody Mary with some Guinness!
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: Clemsonfan on February 14, 2011, 04:55:33 PM
Schmoozing the guy making out the foursomes is really the way to go...  ;)

Perhaps a practice round at Pelican on Tuesday?

I had the good fortune of playing both Pelican Hill courses last year on the same day, and had a great day.

I would love to join you, if possible.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on June 07, 2011, 07:54:55 AM
UPDATE:

After working with and showing these putters to enough different people over the course of the late winter and spring, I thought I would pass along some thoughts.

First discovery is that I need two more. I will be seeing Byron at the mixer and I hope to show him then the two I missed. No big secret, after getting my Bombora long neck I need two fitting blades in this configuration. the center shafted putters are neutral. Work ok for almost all our stroke profiles. Not the best answer for upright swing paths, or to help reduce rotation.

Second discovery is the eye opener. In the Golf Digest Article the designer for Taylormade said you wouldn't or shouldn't design your own putter. I am convinced using the blades that the exact opposite is true. If we can help you find the right/shaft face relationship, it is much better to finish the rest of the putter your self.

MUCH BETTER!!! I cannot say that more strongly. Once the player understands the rotational requirements of the putter (neck to face) the improvement in putting when players have an input in the design is measureable. Color matters, feel matters, VISUAL MATTERS, it all makes a difference.

MORE TO COME.

Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on June 07, 2011, 08:04:43 AM
PS
 Don't wait 30 years waiting for someone to build the one you like and need.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on July 01, 2011, 09:19:45 AM
I just got done reading a load in one of the golf publications from the latest "guru". In the interest of fairness let me say that I am not a big fan of the author. So contrary to what you might read.....

THE PUTTER YOU USE MATTERS!!!!!!!!!

Anyone who has had a Puttlab measurement done using different putters knows this to be true or if they send me their reports, I can show you where the differences are.

Byron and anyone else willing to make a putter to a players specifications, performs an incredibly valuable service to anyone who plays this game with a desire to improve.

Not only is the effort worth it. The end result is something to be proud of.
It was hard to really get into how Byron's fitting putters worked at the Mixer. There wasn't the time and certainly not my place. But they do provide a way to discover the best specifications for you.




Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: drewspin on July 01, 2011, 02:28:54 PM
I just got done reading a load in one of the golf publications from the latest "guru". In the interest of fairness let me say that I am not a big fan of the author. So contrary to what you might read.....

THE PUTTER YOU USE MATTERS!!!!!!!!!

Anyone who has had a Puttlab measurement done using different putters knows this to be true or if they send me their reports, I can show you where the differences are.

Byron and anyone else willing to make a putter to a players specifications, performs an incredibly valuable service to anyone who plays this game with a desire to improve.

Not only is the effort worth it. The end result is something to be proud of.
It was hard to really get into how Byron's fitting putters worked at the Mixer. There wasn't the time and certainly not my place. But they do provide a way to discover the best specifications for you.


Still working on a plan to get me to out to the Academy... but in the mean time, are there any Puttlabs near DC?
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on July 01, 2011, 03:17:13 PM
Drew,

I am sure there are. I'll get back to you.

Bruce
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on February 25, 2012, 12:38:02 PM
I just saw a mechanical fitting version of the profile putters done by Yes! They sitll dont tell you how to decide what is best for you. I think you would rather know than guess. Byron and the guys know! We have been doing it for a couple of years. Man I wish I would win the lottery.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: jman32 on March 25, 2013, 08:15:34 PM
This fitting method is similar to the old slazenger fitting method.  We use to hand bend the amount of toe hang and offset into a putter based on stroke type and aiming pattern. Offset has a big impact on alignment.  It was a very good system with many head choices and materials.  Most of the people I fit are still using the putters more than 10 years later.  It is nice to see a similar system out there.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: bargolf on March 26, 2013, 07:35:56 PM
I dont want to sound petty. This has no similarity to the Slazenger method other than shaft/ hosel options. We especially

DO NOT FIT OFFSET TO AIM OR ALIGNMENT.

We measure for shaft axis as well. We also fit for cog.

Slazenger was a great system and ahead of its time. I am very familiar with it. However if you had a Slazenger putter and went through our system you would not end up with the same putter. Time will tell which is better if either is.
Title: Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
Post by: chuck4golf on September 10, 2015, 12:41:55 AM
This is a pretty dormant thread. But I just met these two guys and am very impressed by their skills and the power of this collaboration.

I ran into Bruce trying to figure out how to systematically evaluate putters. I subscribed to his service and started learning a lot. I knew about Byron, but didn't know they collaborated.  When I saw this I just thought this was a GREAT synergy of two very skilled people.

I am very interested in hearing how people who used this approach have developed as putters. I fully expect to see my putting improve. My long game is a 6 index. Putting more like a 15.