Academy Byron Testing

[bargolf]

Testing DaveL's putters

[finalist]

Did Dave dye his hair?

[bargolf]

Explanation to come.

[bargolf]

[finalist]

I'm excited for you to see what shows up at the mixer. It's pretty stunning to see what Byron brings out for the mixer and all the different styles people bring.

[bargolf]

 The following are a sample of how a putter changes you stroke.

The first report is from the DS-11. What are you looking at? this is the rotation report. On the left is the putter rotation measured over the duration of the stroke. One the rate of rotation over time. In other words how fast is the putter moving. The black hash marks are position at impact. On the left if the hash marks are above the line the face was open, on the line square and below the line closed. Ont he right the hash marks show rate of rotation at impact. At first glance notice the irregular pattern of putter movement on the same putt. 5 different strokes. This is pretty dramatic and something we are going to help her with, once we find the right putter for her stroke. I won't get into a bunch of details here but I want to make a point. There are users of the technology that call this pattern of rotation the yips. I am not biomechanically trained so i can't really commnet on that since the true yips are a physical problem. But if that is true then these three reports show evidence that the yips can be helped by putter selection and I believe changing a putte that does not match the stroke can cause them as well.

The second is from the 006 notice the the rate of rotation slows at the start of the forward swing. Lines move more laterally on the right side graph than the DS-11 and changes pattern. The putter is less closed at impact. But we still have the erratic pattern of rotation.


The final is the Bombora with the short pipe hosel. Notice how the lines come closer together and move in a similar direction. this is a big improvement and was noticable to her. "I like this putter best she said." This style of putter was closer to the design recommended by our fitting protocol which she has gone through but not been told of the results. As the new kid on the block she doesn't get to know. The Bombora is close but not quite the fit. We need more offset and lighter weight to finish the job.

any questions fire away.

[reflog74]

This ought to cover it, Bruce.

Why?   

John

PS:  I mean, what is it about that design that produces more consistent rotation?

[finalist]

How would she do with a standard DH-11 plumber's neck? If lighter is needed then maybe a DH-89 standard Plumber's neck?

[Will Par]

So far this has been one of the most dramatic examples of how a putter changes your mechanics.

I've always believed that a putting stroke will change depending on the putter.  I know my stroke changes depending on the type of putter I'm using.  But the question I keep asking is why does this happen?  I think I asked once if face rotation changes when a robot swings different putters and Bruce answered no.  So, if different putters all swing the same when attached to a robot, it can't be the balance or design of the putter that makes the stroke different.  So what is it? 
 
If it is not putter balance, it must be something visual or something related to feel.  I think different putters make us move our hands around to get the putter to "look" right at address.  The position of the hands can be influenced by length of the putter, distance from hosel to sweet spot, loft and lie, and other visual aspects of the putter head.  If you change the position of your hands, you automatically change your putting stroke. 

Bruce, do your tests determine if the tester has his/her hands positioned differently when using various putters?  If variation in the position of the hands is not the reason for the change in stroke, what is the answer?  Can it just be how the weight and balance of a putter feels in our hands?

[bargolf]

I don't have all the answers, yet. I feel like I am getting closer. If anyone wants more detail pm me. I am gald to share what I have learned with forum members. Not crazy about the lurkers who use the info they read here and call it their own.

The best I can tell you right now is that it looks like the way people react to different designs is predictable. All I can say for sure is everything matters. Face balance is just the end result of a complete putter and all of the factors that make up face balance have an effect.

As to the robot testing. Remember robots have no feel. They make the same stroke regardless. People react.

I will share another story about robots. I had the opportunity to work with a crude robot for a short period of time in a prior job. The robot was aluminum and we tested a number of putters with it on Puttlab. Of course all the reports were exactly the same with one exception. There was a very small irregularity in the rotation graph. the balance of some putters was vibrating the robot. Some were perfectly smooth. Had this robot been anchored to the ground or built with more substantial materials I would have never seen it. It has taken me three years to figure out why and it is the basis of the fitting protocol we have developed. What you see with Margaret is the putter vibrating the stroke.

Motion plane and rotational requirement are two terms you hear me using alot.

[bargolf]

So far this has been one of the most dramatic examples of how a putter changes your mechanics.

I've always believed that a putting stroke will change depending on the putter.  I know my stroke changes depending on the type of putter I'm using.  But the question I keep asking is why does this happen?  I think I asked once if face rotation changes when a robot swings different putters and Bruce answered no.  So, if different putters all swing the same when attached to a robot, it can't be the balance or design of the putter that makes the stroke different.  So what is it? 
 
If it is not putter balance, it must be something visual or something related to feel.  I think different putters make us move our hands around to get the putter to "look" right at address.  The position of the hands can be influenced by length of the putter, distance from hosel to sweet spot, loft and lie, and other visual aspects of the putter head.  If you change the position of your hands, you automatically change your putting stroke. 

Bruce, do your tests determine if the tester has his/her hands positioned differently when using various putters?  If variation in the position of the hands is not the reason for the change in stroke, what is the answer?  Can it just be how the weight and balance of a putter feels in our hands?

Will - the strokes are the same. Not the hands, except that you are right, a hand placement change, changes everything. Just not in this case.

[bargolf]

This ought to cover it, Bruce.

Why?   

John

PS:  I mean, what is it about that design that produces more consistent rotation?

Man, you are the poster child for this! Putter matches stroke requirements.

[Thaddy]

Man, Bruce, can't wait to meet you at the Mixer.  I'm sure you'll be a busy guy but I'm quite sure we'll all leave with a much improved understanding of how Byron's putters can make us all better at the game of golf.  This is a very interesting thread!

[drewspin]

Bruce,

I believe your work is going to change golf fitting.

Cheers,
Drew

[bargolf]

Thanks Drew.

You still grinding? I have read your email and other posts all the time.

Keep at it!

Bruce

[bargolf]

How would she do with a standard DH-11 plumber's neck? If lighter is needed then maybe a DH-89 standard Plumber's neck?

Ryan,

That would be agood option. She doesn't see lines very well. But she thinks she has to have one.

[drewspin]

Thanks Drew.

You still grinding? I have read your email and other posts all the time.

Keep at it!

Bruce

Still deconstructing.

Do you have a definition of "motion plane"?

[bargolf]

A personal definition. Not ready for a public forum.

[finalist]

... the putter vibrating the stroke.

Bruce,
That is a VERY interesting way to describe a stroke. I don't know why exactly, but the phrase sticks out as a great new visual.

[Kilmidyke]

Man I love these threads!

So the vibration caused in the "alumi-bot" should be a balance issue with that one putter no? The robot cant see or feel anything, just make a mechanical stroke with its "hands" in the same placement, so the only thing that could cause vibration would be something out of balance I would think.
With a human, obviously we can see and feel so maybe we are kind of pre-conditioning the vibration based on visual cues even before we hit a putt. Perhaps we expect a putter to "feel different" based on the way it looks so we subcontiously alter something within the natural stroke that causes the vibration or irregularities. We expect it to be a certain way and we deliver the outcome for ourselves. On the other hand, when a putter just appears to sit right and it feels right in our hands we pre-condition ourselves that we "cant miss with this one!" and somehow automatically putt better. 
I 100% agree that fine tuning the putter based on the tecno results is the way to go and will ultimately make someone a better, more consistent putter. Having said that, I still go with my original thought that "feel" as subjective as that is, will be the determining factor in how we putt.

Just to clarify......I am NOT being a negative ninny, I'm just trying to understand it all.

One of these days I hope to be able to pay a visit to Bruce at the academy, experience all of the tech first hand and have my own crazy theories blown out of the water!.....then buy him that beer.

[drewspin]

I read Bruce's "vibration" comment as follows:  The rotation of the putter (based on shape) was creating an oscillation pattern that was working against the natural rotational stroke of the robot.

I believe Bruce is going to crack the code on this and be able to match putters nearly perfectly with people's natural strokes.

[Kilmidyke]

Of that I have no doubt!

I agree with what you are saying drew, but it is odd to say the least that only one putter would throw up the anomoly so therefore I suspected, maybe incorrectly, that the putter in question must have a balance issue. For the robot to have no issues with the other putters, presumably of differing head shapes and neck postions, it seems odd that only one of the test putters would have issues. I dont profess to "get" any of this but as I stated before I am trying.

It is fascinating stuff really. If anyone is going to "crack the code" I'm pretty darned sure it'll be Bruce.

[T.J.]

Ok, so riddle me this Bruce

If two identical putters are used, same length,weight,shape,shaft,grip,etc,etc,,,,is there a posibility that they will produce different results to the individual?

Can the mere fact of telling someone that certain putters numbers are best, somehow "trick' the individual in to putting better?

Are putters easier or harder to fit than irons/drivers?

Thanks!

TJ

[lightningbolt444]

Great Post I look forward to all of your posts Bruce thank you for sharing all of this information with us.

[bargolf]

Man I love these threads!

So the vibration caused in the "alumi-bot" should be a balance issue with that one putter no? The robot cant see or feel anything, just make a mechanical stroke with its "hands" in the same placement, so the only thing that could cause vibration would be something out of balance I would think.
With a human, obviously we can see and feel so maybe we are kind of pre-conditioning the vibration based on visual cues even before we hit a putt. Perhaps we expect a putter to "feel different" based on the way it looks so we subcontiously alter something within the natural stroke that causes the vibration or irregularities. We expect it to be a certain way and we deliver the outcome for ourselves. On the other hand, when a putter just appears to sit right and it feels right in our hands we pre-condition ourselves that we "cant miss with this one!" and somehow automatically putt better. 
I 100% agree that fine tuning the putter based on the tecno results is the way to go and will ultimately make someone a better, more consistent putter. Having said that, I still go with my original thought that "feel" as subjective as that is, will be the determining factor in how we putt.

Just to clarify......I am NOT being a negative ninny, I'm just trying to understand it all.

One of these days I hope to be able to pay a visit to Bruce at the academy, experience all of the tech first hand and have my own crazy theories blown out of the water!.....then buy him that beer.

I disagree with nothing K says here. But if feel is truly subjective and it was just by choice we wouldn't see the absolute changes we see in the reports. a great example is reflog74. A very knowledgable guy who understands this stuff completely. yet in a 5 putter test there is measurable imporvement in one over the other 5. 3 of these were the same design with one exception. he keeps telling everyone what it was yet the forum blows him off.  so if it was just a metal excercise they all would feel right. I know how to change my set up for a design, but that causes problems because the changes I have to make creates perception problems.

There are two ways I can approach this. 1. I can find the putter that works for the setup you can consistently repeat. or 2. I can tell you how to use your favorite putter.

I use a model I call the virtual robot. I build the mechanical model of your stroke and then match the design to that model.

Or I reverse engineer it so the robot matches the putter. which I could do with the light weight robot. Loosen some bolts change some angles and the vibration goes away.

[bargolf]

It is not about finding the feel.

It is about repeating the feel.

[funkyfedora]

It is not about finding the feel.

It is about repeating the feel.

So would the "feel" of a Designed by Captain Morgan (8802) be harder to replicate/replicate compared to say a high moi like the Channel Island?

[bargolf]

It is not about finding the feel.

It is about repeating the feel.

So would the "feel" of a Designed by Captain Morgan (8802) be harder to replicate/replicate compared to say a high moi like the Channel Island?

No. High moi does not improve feel it masks it. If you have an upright stance with the ball away from you a little Aaron Baddeley or Justin Leonard the higher moi will feel awful. Just like the DCBM is tough for eyes over crouched stances.

[waddman]

Bruce, great thread! I can't wait to meet you in June at the mixer.  As a student and a teacher of the game, I feel that I can learn a lot from you. 

[T.J.]

It is not about finding the feel.

It is about repeating the feel.

So would the "feel" of a Designed by Captain Morgan (8802) be harder to replicate/replicate compared to say a high moi like the Channel Island?

No. High moi does not improve feel it masks it. If you have an upright stance with the ball away from you a little Aaron Baddeley or Justin Leonard the higher moi will feel awful. Just like the DCBM is tough for eyes over crouched stances.

So that's why a low neck feel so good? because I am not a over the ball putter?

Why does an open stance when putting feel so right? it works great, but am still trying to be square, is that wrong?

[waddman]

It is not about finding the feel.

It is about repeating the feel.

So would the "feel" of a Designed by Captain Morgan (8802) be harder to replicate/replicate compared to say a high moi like the Channel Island?

No. High moi does not improve feel it masks it. If you have an upright stance with the ball away from you a little Aaron Baddeley or Justin Leonard the higher moi will feel awful. Just like the DCBM is tough for eyes over crouched stances.

So that's why a low neck feel so good? because I am not a over the ball putter?

Why does an open stance when putting feel so right? it works great, but am still trying to be square, is that wrong?

So TJ, the open stance works great, and feels so right?  Sounds good to me

[bargolf]

TJ

There are real reasons open and upright feel right. Forced postures for the sake of "better" or best don't work.

The longer you fight yourself the longer it will take to get better.

Lets use Arnold Palmer for an example. I know he putted best when the ball was very close to his feet. The next problem to be solved was that the very close ball position made it tough for him to swing the putter without moving his head. The knocked kneed posture and wristy stroke were the solution.

THE BEST WAY TO PUTT is when you build a stroke that works for you.

[bargolf]

Man, Bruce, can't wait to meet you at the Mixer.  I'm sure you'll be a busy guy but I'm quite sure we'll all leave with a much improved understanding of how Byron's putters can make us all better at the game of golf.  This is a very interesting thread!

Thanks Thaddy, We will find time.

[bargolf]

Ok, so riddle me this Bruce

If two identical putters are used, same length,weight,shape,shaft,grip,etc,etc,,,,is there a posibility that they will produce different results to the individual?

Can the mere fact of telling someone that certain putters numbers are best, somehow "trick' the individual in to putting better?

Are putters easier or harder to fit than irons/drivers?

Thanks!

TJ

Sorry TJ I didn't answer all your questions. The answer about the indentical putters is only if you try. For example, if you are a player who trys a new method everytime you miss a putt you will never be sure about a putter. The goal isn't to find a magic wand, it is to build a consistent pattern, to achieve a predictable result.

Confidence never hurts, but PuttLab doesn't lie either. If you have a bad driver fit all the confidence in the world won't fix it. Just becasue putting is at a slower speed and way more subtle you still will have simialr issues.

Putter no doubt. That is why so many teachers can go on forever about the full swing and then turn around and say putting is an individual thing.

[bargolf]

A great example of an attempt to reverse engineer a stroke is Ernie Els. He wants to be
SBST. For some reason doesn't trust an arcing stroke anymore. At 6'4" it is hard to find the posture to build a consistent SBST motion, so he struggles. he has a putter that suits the desired technique, but his body won't co-operate. I call it a stroke in conflict.

[reflog74]

The lure of the SBST stroke is strong, Bruce.  It seems like the simplest way to putt.  But, it's anything but simple in reality.  It disconnects the hands/arms from the body, and that creates inconsistency, IMO.  It's counter-intuitive.  Seems simple, so it SHOULD BE repeatable, right?   

John

[T.J.]

It is not about finding the feel.

It is about repeating the feel.

So would the "feel" of a Designed by Captain Morgan (8802) be harder to replicate/replicate compared to say a high moi like the Channel Island?

No. High moi does not improve feel it masks it. If you have an upright stance with the ball away from you a little Aaron Baddeley or Justin Leonard the higher moi will feel awful. Just like the DCBM is tough for eyes over crouched stances.

So that's why a low neck feel so good? because I am not a over the ball putter?

Why does an open stance when putting feel so right? it works great, but am still trying to be square, is that wrong?

So TJ, the open stance works great, and feels so right?  Sounds good to me

Then I'll stay that way!,,,,,,,, can you change your avatar? every time I see it, I think of the one that got away!!! *LOL*,,,

Man am learning from Bruce!!!

[waddman]

It is not about finding the feel.

It is about repeating the feel.

So would the "feel" of a Designed by Captain Morgan (8802) be harder to replicate/replicate compared to say a high moi like the Channel Island?

No. High moi does not improve feel it masks it. If you have an upright stance with the ball away from you a little Aaron Baddeley or Justin Leonard the higher moi will feel awful. Just like the DCBM is tough for eyes over crouched stances.

So that's why a low neck feel so good? because I am not a over the ball putter?

Why does an open stance when putting feel so right? it works great, but am still trying to be square, is that wrong?

So TJ, the open stance works great, and feels so right?  Sounds good to me

Then I'll stay that way!,,,,,,,, can you change your avatar? every time I see it, I think of the one that got away!!! *LOL*,,,

Man am learning from Bruce!!!

I'll change it in June when I get the putter that you probably would have gotten had you been there

[finalist]

...with an HB stamp.

Ouch

[T.J.]

It is not about finding the feel.

It is about repeating the feel.

So would the "feel" of a Designed by Captain Morgan (8802) be harder to replicate/replicate compared to say a high moi like the Channel Island?

No. High moi does not improve feel it masks it. If you have an upright stance with the ball away from you a little Aaron Baddeley or Justin Leonard the higher moi will feel awful. Just like the DCBM is tough for eyes over crouched stances.

So that's why a low neck feel so good? because I am not a over the ball putter?

Why does an open stance when putting feel so right? it works great, but am still trying to be square, is that wrong?

So TJ, the open stance works great, and feels so right?  Sounds good to me

Then I'll stay that way!,,,,,,,, can you change your avatar? every time I see it, I think of the one that got away!!! *LOL*,,,

Man am learning from Bruce!!!

I'll change it in June when I get the putter that you probably would have gotten had you been there

...with an HB stamp.

Ouch

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the inhumanity !!!!

Am going to envy you gentlemen!

[simmons_m]

Bruce, I am looking forward to meeting you at the mixer.  Great info, and interesting thread. 
Mike

[bargolf]

Update.

I have had a chance to try Dave's putters some more.

1. The long necks perform as I had posted in the thread about the long pipe Byron built for me. Stability at all speeds is the best way for me to describe it.
2. Working with these two putters has further convinced me of the effect of weight as it relates to the overall moi of a putter. Two similar head designs yet the DH-11 proved to be much harder to close than the 006. If you used face balance as a guide you would think the opposite. I wish it were more simple but there seems to be a sliding scale of shaft axis to putter face, offset and weight that helps match the putter to the stroke. No surprise there, but we are getting closer to understanding why. For example why do tour players prefer lighter weights than most amateurs?

This idea of overall putter moi is the final piece of the puzzle for me. Once I can quantify that I can help answer the fit questions we could only do through trial and error before.

Once again thanks to all of you for the feedback.

[kints]

Go out to a PGA or Nationwide event on a Wednesday or Thursday and hang by the putting green.  If you ask nicely, a lot of times the guys will let you hold and look at their putter.  I assure you, you will find VERY FEW putters over 340.  I am always puzzled with the amateur fascination for 350 and more.  Great point Bruce.

[Thaddy]

Shawn, I wonder if it has anything to do with the amateur not having a consistent stroke like the pros.  We tend to use the weight of the putter to help stabilize head instead of the body.  The extra weight helps us mask our inconsistencies.

[nvgolfdude]

Go out to a PGA or Nationwide event on a Wednesday or Thursday and hang by the putting green.  If you ask nicely, a lot of times the guys will let you hold and look at their putter.  I assure you, you will find VERY FEW putters over 340.  I am always puzzled with the amateur fascination for 350 and more.  Great point Bruce.

Bruce has posted many times that heavier weight creates a more stable stroke for most players.  Keep in mind that most golfers are putting with off the rack putters that weigh in between 330-340 grams.  Many of these players would benefit from a heavier putter.  I putt my best at between 355-365 grams.  The great thing about Byron is that you can a putter made to fit your needs, heavy, light, or in between.

As for the tour guys, it makes sense to me that the very best in the world playing on fast greens that are impeccably conditioned will require less weight from their putters.  They are better than the rest of us. 

[reflog74]

Here's my theory, and it goes back to Cameron.  The first 350g production putters I know of where the 33" gun blue Titleists, that were marketed as being for women.  Same with the later OC version.  They became very popular with shorter golfers who wanted 33" putters.  These putters became very popular in Japan, where Camerons were already avidly collected.  Then custom and "tour" models started popping up with these specs, and it wasn't long before 33/350 was called "tour preferred" (even though it wasn't).  US collectors hopped on the wagon.  Interestingly, Cameron was always adamant that his putters were correctly balanced at 36/320, 35/330, 34/340 and 33/350.  But, when the 009's came out, suddenly there were a lot of 34/350's.  Many of us saw that and wondered what had happened to the old balance "rules".

I don't think there's anything wrong with 350g heads.  I do think they are better suited to short lengths.  I used to use 33/350, during a period when I was stooped over with a bad back.  As that got better and I became more upright, 33" was too short and I was back to 35".  With Bruce's help, we discovered that for me, at that length, weight in the 330g range was best.

Back to the tour.  I would bet that there are very few guys using 33" putters.  They are also playing faster greens than we are, on average.  IMO, these factors drive the prevalence of lighter weight heads.

John

[bargolf]

Your weight - not best weight.

John, Dave and others have found the weight that works for them.

[kints]

Your weight - not best weight.

John, Dave and others have found the weight that works for them.

I could not agree more.