Author Topic: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)  (Read 45803 times)

nvgolfdude

Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2010, 12:38:14 PM »
I expect that when Bruce is ready to reveal more details about what he is doing and how he is rolling it out to the world there will be a thread focused on that information in a different section of PT.  This thread is more of a celebration of Bruce's program and Byron's talent coming together.

Great thread!  It is awesome to see Bruce & Byron joining together to showcase their skills!!

IMHO, this should have it's own section so it shows up on the first page for all to see.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2010, 12:58:23 PM »
Another issue the fitting system addresses is lie angle to putter design. Our study showed us we have forced many players to shorter putters to suit certain design aspects. Where a player might have a very consistent stroke at 35 and 69 but have a preference for a face balanced mallet. The mallet is no longer face balanced at that setup.

We fought this battle a great deal with some of our younger competitive players who prefered to try a certain insect type putter. In order to make that particular putter work we had to force the posture to accept the putter fit. Or bend the putter to accept the fit. either way, it was a disaster 100% of the time.



« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 01:00:50 PM by bargolf »
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bargolf

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2010, 01:04:00 PM »
Hmmm... std rotation #3 must be 4:30 toe hang with full shaft of offset = standard plumber's neck DH89?

Bruce, Do you have theories on grip thickness? I find that's one of my favorite areas to fine tune.


Well, if I've learned anything from Bruce, it's that "Std Rotation #3" with my posture works best with putters shafted more toward the heel (DH89 is fine; DBCM might encourage too much rotation), 35" and 330g (any heavier makes it harder to get the toe back to square at impact).  Now, a Bombora set up like this would work very nicely, but here's where looks and personal preference come into play.  I'm more confident standing over an Anser style/heel-toe-weighted putter.  They fit my eye and I can get them aimed correctly.

How'd I do, Coach Bruce?

John
sorry John, Imissed this.I couldn't have said this better myself!!!!!!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 01:07:47 PM by bargolf »
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2010, 08:23:23 PM »
Jim Furyck - Low Rotation #6  No line!
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simmons_m

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2010, 12:42:47 AM »
I leave for a couple of weeks, and this is what I come back to.  Now my head is spinning.
This really sounds like great stuff.  Thanks Bruce.  Congratulations on the partnership.   
Can't wait until there is a fitter in AZ.
Mike

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2010, 01:25:59 PM »
The putters arrived on Friday!!! They are just what I had hoped for. We did some quick tests with people in the Academy over the weekend and so far so good.

One of the discoveries we wondered about seems to be true. No alignment aids on the test putters, the same blade shape and the only difference is relationship of shaft axis to putter, players aimed each model differently. Right aimers improved as the shaft axis moved toward the center. Left aimers improved as the shaft axis moved toward the heel.

This is just speculation at this point as the data sample is still small, but it backs what we thought we were seeing in the original study. We don't have enough tests without other visual aids on putters. But I have enough to be confident enough to post this. Vision is impacted by putter design which forces posture which forces path and direction which determines which design to use. It is all a big circle and helps explain why certain putters work well with certain strokes. i often read that good putters can putt with anything. I have never believed that to be true. I am convinced that good putters are made not born and the putter is a huge influence.

This does not negate the effect of visual aligment aids, just adds to the confusion. But it does convince me that certain combinations of lines and shaft placement are to be avioded for certain players and these problems can be predictable.

For example a double bend shaft face balanced putter with a line in the cavity of the putter will not work well for someone aims left.
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simmons_m

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2010, 12:13:14 AM »
What's the best way to determine if you are left or a right alignment putter?
Today on the practice green, i found that i have the tendency to keep the cup above my putting line.  (right handed putter, left hand low grip, cup to the right of my line)
I think this makes me a left alignment putter, and may explain why a two-ball never worked for me. Trying to make sure i am getting the concept down.
Thanks Bruce,  I think this is very interesting, and look forward to reading more.

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2010, 09:29:36 AM »
What's the best way to determine if you are left or a right alignment putter?
Today on the practice green, i found that i have the tendency to keep the cup above my putting line.  (right handed putter, left hand low grip, cup to the right of my line)
I think this makes me a left alignment putter, and may explain why a two-ball never worked for me. Trying to make sure i am getting the concept down.
Thanks Bruce,  I think this is very interesting, and look forward to reading more.
Send me a pm and I'll be glad to walk you through it. However, keeping the hole to the right of your line is about the best description you could give. When combined with the left hand low it gives me a pretty clear picture of your setup.

Can you describe your posture and tell me where your eyes are relative to the ball or look at the three posted pictures and pick which posutre best describes your own.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2010, 09:44:07 AM »
Choose one.
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pcirelli

Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2010, 09:53:09 AM »
Depends on if your eyes should be over (1) or inside (2) the ball.

I wish I didn't live so far away from you. I'd love to test my putters set up against your theories. Very interesting stuff, so please keep feeding us!!!
-Pete
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pcirelli

Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2010, 09:54:06 AM »
Bruce: Also, how much of a role does your grip play in all of this? Thx.
-Pete
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simmons_m

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2010, 11:55:24 AM »
I was way off.   Thank you Bruce, a picture is worth 1000 words.
My setup is most similar to the 2nd one. (middle)
Thanks, I will follow-up with a PM
Thank you

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2010, 03:05:54 PM »
Bruce: Also, how much of a role does your grip play in all of this? Thx.
-Pete

The grip is the most subjective of all the choices. We have found that grip preferences can change with balance, weight or with a change in how you grip the putter. The most versatile grip is round, but having said that I think there is such a thing as the perfect fit of hands on putter and a grip profile has to influence that. I have seen that people who have a favorite grip also tend to stick to a certain design of putter. for example the PingMan grip guys often pair up with the Anser style. Utley and Tiger Woods to name two of many.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2010, 03:18:04 PM »
Posture and Direction.

The pictures of the posture help us dictate the correct or expected amount of rotation.

The path direction is determined by a number of factors. 1. Shoulder alignment. 2. Spine tilt. 3. Source of motion

Left path factors shoulders level, conventional grip, open stance, left hand lead, low hands, shoulder rock strokes, ball forward with open shoulders etc. Left path players need putters that are slow to close on the forward swing.

Right path players. back shoulder lower than front, Closed stance, right hand stroke, left hand low with square shoulders(furyck) high hands, Right path players need putters that easily close.

The trick is to have the right face to path relationship to get square to the target at impact. Using the path direction to square the face is inefficient and inconsistent and to be honest way to hard to achieve.

Our fitting program is based on a concept called tilted plane. Everyone has a directional bias. this is casued by a tilted plane. too many players try to fix it rather than use it. We found the best putters in the test matched the best putters in history by using the tilted plane to their advantage.
Byron Morgan Bombora In-Between Long Pipe
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pcirelli

Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2010, 03:20:40 PM »
Bruce: Also, how much of a role does your grip play in all of this? Thx.
-Pete

The grip is the most subjective of all the choices. We have found that grip preferences can change with balance, weight or with a change in how you grip the putter. The most versatile grip is round, but having said that I think there is such a thing as the perfect fit of hands on putter and a grip profile has to influence that. I have seen that people who have a favorite grip also tend to stick to a certain design of putter. for example the PingMan grip guys often pair up with the Anser style. Utley and Tiger Woods to name two of many.
Bruce: I suppose I should clarify on "grip". I was referring to how you grip/hold the putter, although you may have answered some of this in previous posts. Sorry for the confusion!
-pete
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 03:22:11 PM by pcirelli »
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2010, 03:40:58 PM »
Bruce: Also, how much of a role does your grip play in all of this? Thx.
-Pete

The grip is the most subjective of all the choices. We have found that grip preferences can change with balance, weight or with a change in how you grip the putter. The most versatile grip is round, but having said that I think there is such a thing as the perfect fit of hands on putter and a grip profile has to influence that. I have seen that people who have a favorite grip also tend to stick to a certain design of putter. for example the PingMan grip guys often pair up with the Anser style. Utley and Tiger Woods to name two of many.
Bruce: I suppose I should clarify on "grip". I was referring to how you grip/hold the putter, although you may have answered some of this in previous posts. Sorry for the confusion!
-pete

No question! How my hands are placed on the club critical and when we fit to the players grip style, as the fit of the putter certainly changes if the placement of the hands change!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those who experiment with hand placement often stop after the fit. Nothing else feels right.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 03:43:14 PM by bargolf »
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2010, 01:44:44 PM »
Posture and Direction.

The pictures of the posture help us dictate the correct or expected amount of rotation.

The path direction is determined by a number of factors. 1. Shoulder alignment. 2. Spine tilt. 3. Source of motion

Left path factors shoulders level, conventional grip, open stance, left hand lead, low hands, shoulder rock strokes, ball forward with open shoulders etc. Left path players need putters that are slow to close on the forward swing.

Right path players. back shoulder lower than front, Closed stance, right hand stroke, left hand low with square shoulders(furyck) high hands, Right path players need putters that easily close.

The trick is to have the right face to path relationship to get square to the target at impact. Using the path direction to square the face is inefficient and inconsistent and to be honest way to hard to achieve.

Our fitting program is based on a concept called tilted plane. Everyone has a directional bias. this is casued by a tilted plane. too many players try to fix it rather than use it. We found the best putters in the test matched the best putters in history by using the tilted plane to their advantage.


bruce-  i realize that having a stroke that delivers the putter face square to the intended target line during the impact interval is the ultimate goal but what is the first step- is it getting a putter that you can aim accurately at the intended target line at address?

nvgolfdude

Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2010, 03:02:37 PM »
bruce-  i realize that having a stroke that delivers the putter face square to the intended target line during the impact interval is the ultimate goal but what is the first step- is it getting a putter that you can aim accurately at the intended target line at address?

I'd think that the first order of business is to build a reliable, repeatable stroke coupled with a consistent preshot routine and then go through Bruce's fitting system to find the optimal putter for you.  Bruce?
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2010, 03:03:55 PM »
djd,

I think it is a mistake to use aim as a criteria for putter selection. For example you might like a high moi mallet because you aim it well and and never putt well becasue you require a putter that rotates more easily. Many TM Spider owners that fought that battle. There a thousands of great aimers who cannot putt.

We think aiming is a function of eye and head position and not putter design. If I give you any putter and a straight line reference you will move your head and eyes until it looks correct to you. If that is a comfortable posture that you can easily find and repeat. Perfect lets go with that. Consistency is what we are looking for.

Also over half of the players we tested could not see any line on a putter accurately. A little over 60% were much better aimers when there was no line or just a dot.

So because of these issues and others we think it is important to find the right balance and design for the stroke and then deal with the aiming aspect.
For example, lets say you decide that you go through the process and we decide that a DH89 is the best model for your stroke. Now you can decide the cosmetics that work best for you. As a general rule right aimers will benfit form a line in the cavity. Left aimers a site dot or nothing at all.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2010, 03:05:50 PM »
bruce-  i realize that having a stroke that delivers the putter face square to the intended target line during the impact interval is the ultimate goal but what is the first step- is it getting a putter that you can aim accurately at the intended target line at address?

I'd think that the first order of business is to build a reliable, repeatable stroke coupled with a consistent preshot routine and then go through Bruce's fitting system to find the optimal putter for you.  Bruce?

Yep. Or let us help you find that reliable stroke through the fitting process. That is what we have been doing at the Academy. Finding the best set up for aim and comfort. Fit the putter to that posture.
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jhchop

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2010, 03:19:14 PM »
Bruce. Is there any way for you to make a recommendation based on PuttLab PDF's I sent you last year, or for that matter, new PDF's someone would send you.
I think it's fantastic that you and Morgan would team up like this. Thx..John H
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2010, 03:22:50 PM »
bruce has it been your experience that golfers who could aim the putter great but had a suboptimal set-up and stroke for their particular biases (e.g: perfect aim with a short shafted, upright mallet and SBST stroke but unable to hit the hole despite the perfect aim) auto correct their stroke and efficiency just with a change in putter even if that change introduces an aiming bias (for instance, the golfer with the perfect aim with a mallet switches to a heel shafted, flat lie, longer shafted blade and although he now consistently aims 3* left at address consistently starts to roll the ball on his target line with an arc stroke)?  If so, i guess those aiming lasers are of limited value.

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2010, 03:23:20 PM »
Bruce. Is there any way for you to make a recommendation based on PuttLab PDF's I sent you last year, or for that matter, new PDF's someone would send you.
I think it's fantastic that you and Morgan would team up like this. Thx..John H

John - Sure, do you want to do it here or should I pm you?
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2010, 03:32:56 PM »
bruce has it been your experience that golfers who could aim the putter great but had a suboptimal set-up and stroke for their particular biases (e.g: perfect aim with a short shafted, upright mallet and SBST stroke but unable to hit the hole despite the perfect aim) auto correct their stroke and efficiency just with a change in putter even if that change introduces an aiming bias (for instance, the golfer with the perfect aim with a mallet switches to a heel shafted, flat lie, longer shafted blade and although he now consistently aims 3* left at address consistently starts to roll the ball on his target line with an arc stroke)?  If so, i guess those aiming lasers are of limited value.


Early on when we brought Puttlab ot the US there was a story about a legendary putter. He set the putter down 3 or 4 degrees right of the target line every time and swung it back to square everytime. When we commented about the direction of his aim he said it was perfect and for him it was. so rather than adjusting path he fixed his rotation by moving the start point. I will tell you that from that mommnet however I knew the putter was important in his process. He has used the same model his whole life and built the stroke around the characteristics of that putter. My Day Ping was the original.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2010, 03:41:00 PM »
If you think others would benefit from the interchange, I'm fine with doing it here, Bruce. Your call. Thx

Bruce. Is there any way for you to make a recommendation based on PuttLab PDF's I sent you last year, or for that matter, new PDF's someone would send you.
I think it's fantastic that you and Morgan would team up like this. Thx..John H

John - Sure, do you want to do it here or should I pm you?
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2010, 04:53:34 PM »
Lets do it here. John was one of the reasons I pushed harder on the putter fitting aspect of our study. Thanks John! He sent me two reports a year ago and I stuggled a little with a solution as far as putter selection at the time. He is what we call Profile 1.

John has a sbst path with a inside out bias. 1-2 degrees right.  Because of the direction bias to the right we need a putter which will help the player swing with the face slightly closed to the path. These are typically offset and shaft axis toward the heel of the putter. But for John that is too much rotation. He sent me two reports. One was a high moi putter that didn't he couldn't rotate enough, the other a heel shafted blade that he rotates too much.

The solution comes in a putter where the shaft axis is in front of the putter and centered. These are typically long neck blades and some offset double bend mallets. Because of the more upright plane of his stroke we would look to go shorter rather than longer. Of the two putters we compared one was 34 and one was 35 We would suggest 34.

As far as weight heavier slows the rotation and lighter speeds the rotation. So depending on preferance look to a little heavier rather than lighter 340-350 ish. We like heavier putters with straight paths.

So a Long Pipe or long neck and a full shaft offset on any of Bryon's blades. No mini though sorry.
A little of a disclaimer.

This is a conssitent stroke and we are fitting to this stroke. if I saw it in person I might make an adjustment. Hand position etc. This would not change the basic selection. for example John aims slightly right. I would typically move him closer another reason for 34 inches or put a line in the cavity of the putter.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 04:57:04 PM by bargolf »
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2010, 05:38:00 PM »
Thx, Bruce. Now an update; let's see if this is consistant with your thoughts.

You may not recall, but originally we found that I aimed far better with a dot than a line, so based on all of what I did - and we discussed - I put the 35" putter, 340 grams (with a line) in the rack and went to a 33.5" putter (was much more comfortable closer to the ball and more upright postured like your pic number 1 above), blade design, towards the heel shaft - 1 offset, 351 grams, oval on top of face. Results are much improved, but not 100% there. My current putter has a short stove pipe neck, not a long neck, and a toe hang of about 4:30.

So, Bruce, as a next step in evolution, do I have this spec'ed correctly?  Morgan Bombara - 33.5" - 360-365 grams (?) - long pipe - face balanced (?) - oval or dot - standard lie.

I'm thinking 360 gram range, Bruce, as I can loose the putter on 2 footers - get wobbly.
Length of 33.5 may be perfect as it gets me over the ball with great posture.

Thoughts?
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2010, 08:20:51 AM »
Thx, Bruce. Now an update; let's see if this is consistant with your thoughts.

You may not recall, but originally we found that I aimed far better with a dot than a line, so based on all of what I did - and we discussed - I put the 35" putter, 340 grams (with a line) in the rack and went to a 33.5" putter (was much more comfortable closer to the ball and more upright postured like your pic number 1 above), blade design, towards the heel shaft - 1 offset, 351 grams, oval on top of face. Results are much improved, but not 100% there. My current putter has a short stove pipe neck, not a long neck, and a toe hang of about 4:30.

So, Bruce, as a next step in evolution, do I have this spec'ed correctly?  Morgan Bombara - 33.5" - 360-365 grams (?) - long pipe - face balanced (?) - oval or dot - standard lie.

I'm thinking 360 gram range, Bruce, as I can loose the putter on 2 footers - get wobbly.
Length of 33.5 may be perfect as it gets me over the ball with great posture.

Thoughts?

John,

I remember it was a Titleist right?
The down side of that putter was the tendency to have too much rotation at impact.

I think the Bombora would be perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But no less than 1/2 shaft offset.

I cannot say that more strongly and if it doesn't work come on the forum and tell everyone it didn't and blame me for the result.

Thanks for recommending me to Mitch by the way. Alot of good for me has come from that relationship.

Bruce
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 08:26:26 AM by bargolf »
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2010, 08:39:25 AM »
Yes, Bruce, it was a Titleist. Mitch is a great guy. I know he came to see you for several days in the summer; I almost committed as well, but my business travel schedule has been brutal this year. But, I'm glad it work out for both of you!

So, please let me get this straight. ALL of the spec's above work for you? If I go 1 full offset with a long pipe neck, should the face have some toe hang to resist closing through impact or should it be long neck face balanced, Bruce? You're okay with the 360's range and the 33.5 length?

Thx so much, again, for everything.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2010, 09:12:06 AM »
Absolutely,

First we need a putter swings well on an up right plane. This where the long pipe works. It moves the shaft axis to the center. Don't worry about face balance the offset is what controls the rotation. We have seen dozens of face balance offset putters that rotate faster than the same face balanced putter without the offset. We don't recommend building to toehang. Build what you need and the face balance is what it is. If I were to guess this one will be around 4.

We need a putter that won't resist a small forward rotation at impact. Offset shaft.

We are looking for some weight to stabilize the stroke and minimize the desire to hit the putt rather than stroke the putt. In both reports you sent me there was some right hand activity at impact, the weight will help.

Shorter length matches the upright plane. Right aimer improving by getting closer to the ball is very common!

Finally a great design that looks good without a line!


A great choice!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 09:15:29 AM by bargolf »
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2010, 09:30:17 AM »
Awesome! Perfect, Bruce!

Steve - Dave - I will be putting an order in for a Bombora based on Bruce,s design recommendations. Do you think Byron can work with Bruce's comments with respect to neck/ face-closing needs?

Also, I think this collaboration is significant enough to warrant some kind of stamping designation. Just as one idea, on the heel portion of the face, vertically stamp MORGAN and USGA - in between the two stamp P1 - for Profile 1. Maybe just stamp collaboration on the back flange. Perhaps each idea is lame, but something should be done to honor the work Bruce and Byron are doing together.
Maybe this is lame, but
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Fourteen MT28V5, 55*/11, S-200
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TP Mills Handmade One - 33.5

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2010, 10:22:25 AM »
Awesome! Perfect, Bruce!

Steve - Dave - I will be putting an order in for a Bombora based on Bruce,s design recommendations. Do you think Byron can work with Bruce's comments with respect to neck/ face-closing needs?

Also, I think this collaboration is significant enough to warrant some kind of stamping designation. Just as one idea, on the heel portion of the face, vertically stamp MORGAN and USGA - in between the two stamp P1 - for Profile 1. Maybe just stamp collaboration on the back flange. Perhaps each idea is lame, but something should be done to honor the work Bruce and Byron are doing together.
Maybe this is lame, but

Byron does this neck in his sleep. :) This really cool John and Thanks for the confidence in my ramblings.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #82 on: October 09, 2010, 01:05:01 PM »
I have had a number of inquiries about the posture pictures. What we want to know is the angle from the base of the neck to the ball. This angle dictates the minimum amount of rotation the putter in a stroke with no compensations.

If the putter balance (weight, offset, and to some extent moi combined and not just toe hang) does not match the required amount we see the player begin to steer the putter or have in irregular rotation through the ball. This steer is the #1 reason we miss a putt. No close second.

So you either need the right putter for your stroke based on your best posture and alignment. (this is the best way, satisfies the visual problems) Or you need to develop the stroke that suits the putter you like.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2010, 02:29:12 PM »

One think I hope is clear. The 6 models are just the start point. they represent what I have found is the critical decision when choosing a putter. How the neck attaches to the head. All other considerations come after that decision is made. How the putter evolves from there depends on the player. From six skeletons there are a million options.

Having said that I can also say that every putter ever produced byt any maufacturer, fits a profile some are good for more than one. Some are specific to one style. at the Acdemy we refer to our student s by category number. for example slow rotation #4 or fast closing # 6.

Bruce, do you find that players also adapt their stroke to fit the rear flange shape?

If so, is it to a lesser degree than how the neck attaches to the head?

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2010, 03:24:26 PM »
Drew,

The answer to you first question is yes, but not initially.  I will tell you that what was behind the face of the putter was something we looked at quite closely. We had to make sure it was shaft axis.

We found the biggest influences on how a player reacts to the putter are in order.

1. Fit -length lie etc.
2. Shaft axis (Feel beat visual the more feedback the bigger reaction)
3. Weight- MOI - COG (flange has influence here)
4. Visual (flange would be here aims heavily influenced )

It is all about feedback. How it feels in your hands once the putter is in motion.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2010, 09:46:52 PM »
Bruce;

Do great putters share anything constant?  Do bad putters share anything constant?

T




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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #86 on: October 12, 2010, 09:12:26 AM »
Bruce;

Do great putters share anything constant?  Do bad putters share anything constant?

T




In common

1. Stroke matches posture!
2. Consistent timing and rhythm. they don't change their rhythm to suit the length of putt. They just change their stroke length.
3. PUTTER FITS IN DIMENSION AND PROPER FEEDBACK.


Bad putters are really good putters with bad information.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #87 on: October 12, 2010, 11:10:02 PM »
It is very interesting to read all of your findings.  I am from the complete opposite school of thought when it comes to putting/hitting a golf ball so I like to follow your posts.

T

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2010, 03:11:41 PM »
It is very interesting to read all of your findings.  I am from the complete opposite school of thought when it comes to putting/hitting a golf ball so I like to follow your posts.

T

Good. A great example is the ball flight laws I was forced to learn as a PGA apprentice. Not fact - political. Thank god i liked to read. Search for the Perfect Swing (1969)set me straight.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2010, 07:41:24 PM »
very cool!

going to be in the monthly pga magazine at all anytime in the near future? love to read up about it.

I plan to introduct the program to PGA members starting this fall. I have about 25 appointments right now and I don't get the first portos until this week. PM me if you are interested.
I think this needs to be something that you follow up with.  I know a lot of PGA professionals in the Nor Cal and Northern Nevada area, so please let me know if there is anythin that I can do to help.  I will be at the mixer in HB and I am VERY interested in what you are doing. 

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2010, 10:47:49 PM »
Based on putter lie angle and posture (angle of spine to ground) and body dimensions, there is a natural amount of rotation as the putter swings around the spine. If allowed to happen without interference the putter returns to the address position consistently.

Unless the posture matches many of the "square to path putting aids" on the market the rotation becomes manipulated.

Do you think a player can practice enough to overcome their natural tendencies?

and if not doesn't it make sense that the design of a putter could have a positive or negative influence.

My claim is with the most consistent strokes putter feel matchs natural rotation. The rest follows easily.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2010, 11:36:16 PM »
I don't think a player should overcome natural tendencies.  They should be incorporated into practice so that they can be understood, channeled, and relied upon when needed the most.

Can tendencies be taught/learned?

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2010, 01:15:33 PM »
I don't think a player should overcome natural tendencies.  They should be incorporated into practice so that they can be understood, channeled, and relied upon when needed the most.

Can tendencies be taught/learned?

Tony,

I took a little break passion was overiding common sense. I thought a good bit about your questions about tendencies. It threw me a little bit of a curve. I was convinced that tendencies were created. Vision, posture, alignment, and source of motion created a stroke, and any tendencies in the stroke, like more or less rotation than what would stay square to a path, or directional tendencies based on alignment or source of motion - inside out or outside in being the most common - would be part of the equation when creating a final strategy for your stroke.

But after working through the question I have to say the answer is yes, tendencies can be overcome. It would be the same as teaching a new tendency. However to overcome tendencies is not usually in your best interest, unless you can answer the question, why do I do what I do? Why do I use more rotation? Why do I force the path direction of my stroke? Why do I block the rotation of the putter at impact. If you can find the source of the tendency and understand how the whole system works then it is safe to try and change. There is a regular on the forum who has built his entire stroke and system successfully based on the idea of maintaining a straight line in his stroke. From position of his eyes to hand position, everything. To do so he had to fight natural tendencies every step of the way because while it is possible we are not built to swing a golf club from a side on position in a straight line. But he did it and it works. I am convinced his success comes not from the straight technique as it did from the work he put into the process of building the stroke.
 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 01:18:59 PM by bargolf »
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reflog74

Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #93 on: November 15, 2010, 01:32:26 PM »
Well put, Bruce.

As you know, I did just the opposite of the person you talk about.  I had tendencies based on being taught SBST and trying to keep the face square to the target throughout.  I decided those tendencies created more issues than trying to learn new tendencies based on an elliptical stroke with some face rotation.  To me, that made alot of sense.  I don't think I'd ever try to revert to the old way.

John

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #94 on: November 15, 2010, 01:41:03 PM »
For me the only way to over come my natural tendencies is to see results fast and consistently. Otherwise my brain reverts back to what's ingrained. I need to be convinced in a hurry. I've also found the only way for me to change anything fast and consistently is to do it at a static address position. Once the swing starts moving it's on its own. Basically grip, shaft alignment, eye position, feet stance, etc are things I can easily change at address, and the good changes effect the swing motion.

It's like holding lag. Hard as heck to learn for some, but some can improve lag with a better grip -- A static change at address. Fundamentals: posture, grip, alignment.
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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2010, 04:13:32 PM »
REALLY looking forward to having Bruce at the Mixer next year!!  :)
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The Genius of Bargolf:  1.  Great putters play to their tendencies and work with them  2.  It isn't the method, it is the application of the method. Memorize the sequence of motion with clubs that fit the method.

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2010, 04:38:46 PM »
REALLY looking forward to having Bruce at the Mixer next year!!  :)

Same here. Will there be a putt off to see who gets to play in his group?
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yoshiod9

Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2010, 05:03:52 PM »
Seriously... I'm going to be a fly on the wall and just listen to the questions you guys ask of Bruce.  Super excited.  That being said, we all know that I'll be winning to putt off.  Perhaps Bruce can give me tips on the long game (short stuff is mostly ok for me... anything outside of 150, though, is trouble). 
Daniel

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2010, 12:23:12 AM »
 :)
     Who wins the putt off to play with Bruce, the better putter or the one's that need it the most?

                                                     Dan

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Re: Collaboration between Byron Golf Design and Bruce Rearick (bargolf)
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2011, 01:51:10 AM »
 :)

     Two months, no reply.  I guess that officially makes me a thread killer!

                                                            Dan